Urine in Portland reservoir: How dangerous is pee in drinking water? | Hacker News Reader

Urine in Portland reservoir: How dangerous is pee in drinking water?

slate.com

36 pointstokenadult51 comments

If this is an open-air reservoir, chances are all sorts of animals have done all sorts of nasty things in it already - the only difference is that this kid got caught.

With an open-air water reservoir, I'd be much more concerned about things like Dracunculiasis (Guinea worm)[0] than urine. Thankfully, the Guinea worm poses a low risk to the US due to how easy it is to prevent[1], but it's a problem elsewhere in the world.

Dracunculiasis only occurs in four countries (and the US is not one), but the reason it spreads/persists there is due to improper practices regarding drinking water.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracunculiasis#Cause - each generation of worms needs a human host, so even if a single water supply were contaminated, it would not be able to reproduce again unless the water supply were re-contaminated.

Portland has open air reservoirs in Mt. Tabor and Washington Park. They're both fenced off, but I do know that dead animals have been found in the Washington Park reservoirs before. what was surprising to me is that this is the first time I realized that the water in these reservoirs has already been processed. I always assumed that they held pre-processed water.

Oh well, at least it isn't as bad as when sewage overflows get released into the Willamette River every few years.

This article has a section header "Health benefits of open water reservoirs". http://southeastexaminer.com/2013/07/open-air-reservoirs-and...

>>what was surprising to me is that this is the first time I realized that the water in these reservoirs has already been processed

I don't believe this. If that was true the entire city would face massive health issues. What is your source of the info?

In my Environmental Engineering class we learned that in the USA, unlike much of the rest of the world, water is chlorinated during the treatment process. The residual chlorine left in the water makes tap water less susceptible to contamination than other treatment methods. A quick google search indicates tap water in Portland is in fact chlorinated (actually, chloramined, which is even safer but has similar benefits), so a small amount of pathogens shouldn't make the water undrinkable.

>I don't believe this. If that was true the entire city would face massive health issues. What is your source of the info?

The city of Portland says so:

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/WATER/article/330807

A finished drinking water reservoir contains water that has been through all the treatment steps required by the federal Safe Drinking Water Act and can be delivered to the public without further treatment. Five of Portland’s finished drinking water reservoirs are uncovered. Three are located at Mount Tabor Park and two are located in Washington Park.

The Mount Tabor reservoir was the one in question.

That sounds like an altogether terrible idea. All it would take is several birds to fly over the water and it'll have fish in it. And then they'll go to the restroom and so on. :/

I would be more worried about Giardia, which definitely is found in Oregon.

Someone said that there were ducks in this water. Ducks are nasty critters and can carry all kinds of things that are infectious to humans.

Apparently the water commissioner is running for re-election, so dumping 38m gallons of water seems safer than behaving like an adult and explaining the actual risk factor (virtually zero).

This epitomizes the flawed nature of our political system. I really think that we have far too many elected officials and not enough commissioned ones (EDIT: I should have said appointed) who can be fired or otherwise held accountable. As I age I'm more and more inclined towards technocratic government.

I'm as cynical as you are, but in the long run, it could have been a positive decision because they may have prevented a public perception of how they give everyone "pee water", where many people irrationally stop drinking tap, and switch to bottled (a bad thing for many reasons).

I believe that if you subsidize irrational behavior you will just get more of it. As a reductio ad absurdum, suppose someone hung themselves next to the reservoir, and it was proposed to drain and refill the reservoir to get rid of 'ghost water.' Of course that would be ridiculous, but if you did it then you might just as easily set a precedent.

Indeed, a quick search for 'ghost reservoir' turns up stories from places as diverse as New Jersey and Singapore, although these are related to drownings, which would present a much more significant health hazard. Fortunately, authorities in those places seem to have kept things in perspective. It's a lot better to just go on TV, tell everyone that the water is actually fine, thank you, and then drink a glass of it on camera to underline the point. Sure, a few crazies will think there's a big cover up and post about it on infowars or wherever, but those are the same people that think flouridation is part of a government plot to kill us all. Fuck them.

Nick Fish is a City Commissioner, whose seat is "Commissioner for Public Works." This includes the water bureau.

"water commissioner" is an elected office? Who knew

I was surprised too.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/01/portlan...

It isn't water commissioner. It is city commissioner who runs the water bureau. Portland has commission form of government where the commissioners are legislative body like city council but also runs departments.

Sarcasm? Can't tell.

If it is, then it's ill-placed. A commissioner is someone who is granted a commission and is appointed.

That's not true. There are many elected positions with the title of commissioner. For example, Port commissioner, County commissioner, or a PUD commissioner.

I would say that it's a problem with our population in general, and specifically our science education, than it is with the political system.

With a well educated populace, a stupid "better safe than sorry" act like this would result in losing the election, not saving it.

Now, I don't know if it's actually possible to achieve that state. But I think that any other fix is just going to work around symptoms rather than addressing the root cause of the problem. Political pressure still applies to appointed posts, after all, it's just somewhat less direct. Instead of the water commissioner making this call for his own election, he'd just be told to do it by whatever elected official is above him.

Wait, is this reservoir one of the large, open, lake-like ones? If so, aren't they already susceptible to tons of other stuff naturally getting in there, like dirt and bird shit?

What did everyone expect, that the water would just naturally stay clean?

We regulate by concentration, but the danger would be in the amount of nitrates consumed. I don't think it would be dangerous for a single individual to drink the entirety of someone's (type 1) restroom visit, unless there were blood in it.

edit:

I forgot that urea is what dominoes are made of.

The internet is too big: http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v32je16.htm

"Four healthy male human subjects received an oral dose of 15 grams urea (approx.250 mg/kg bw), blood urea rose from 30 mg/100 ml (mean level prior to treatment) to a mean level of 42 mg/100 ml (range: 40-46) within 15 to 60 minutes. The increased blood urea levels returned to normal after 3 hours. Fifteen patients with renal impairment, after similar oral treatment with 15 g urea, showed a rise in blood urea from 50 mg/100 ml (mean level prior to treatment; range: 26-220) to a mean level of 75 mg/100 ml (range: 38-299). The increased blood urea levels returned to the levels observed prior to treatment after more than 4 hours (Archer & Robb, 1925)."

So 15 grams wouldn't be enough to poison a single person with kidney impairment.

funnier:

"Since urea is a natural end-product of amino acid metabolism in humans, and that approximately 20 grams/day is excreted in the urine in adults (proportionately less in children) the Committee concluded that the use of urea at levels of up to 3% in chewing-gum was of no toxicological concern."

The people who stand to profit from building underground tanks have been pushing hard on this one for a while. Locally there is this movement in response http://peopleswatertrust.org/

Pushing for what? Pee in the drinking water?

Pushing for a privately-controlled water bureau.

Good analysis in the article. Along another line of thought, let's hope its not especially dangerous, as many animals and birds regularly deposit waste in the reservoir. Our first instincts maybe 'eww, icky' but the system is designed to handle it. On the other hand, maybe he was a homeopathic terrorist.

Utah relies on mountain reservoirs, some of which you're not supposed to swim in. That said, some people do. Our water is great. This is beyond silly.

Not to mention that most of our reservoirs are clogged full of motorboats all summer...

(another Utahan here opposed to silly regulations like no dogs in the Cottonwoods when ski areas dump all sorts of petroleum products, animals and backcountry users are everywhere doing all sorts of things)

Not electric boats? I've heard of electric boats being allowed in reservoirs, but not gas-powered ones.

An electric boat would still presumably run a motor.

Yes, but there's no oil or gas to trickle into the reservoir. I wanted clarification because the colloquial term for mechanically powered boats is 'motorboat'.

I mean, he's for sure not the first one to pee in there, he just got spotted :)

Oh come on. This is stupid. Drain the whole reservoir! The city of Portland should also consider animal & ground waste run off.

Geez. Those folks should come down to lovely Pacifica in SF where about 4 major drain pipes sit facing the beach next to a creek flowing into the ocean while about 100 surfers catch waves every weekend.. me included :P

We should be more concerned about human consumption of drugs which end up passed by the body and into our toilets.. probably ending up someplace in Pacifica into the ocean. Ok I think I just gave myself a reason to stop going there. lol

Still, where did society go wrong with the knucklehead who peed in the water reservoir? What causes anyone to commit such an unwarranted antisocial gesture? Is it disdain for fellow people? Disdain for the city? That's the same kind of guy that slashes public transit upholstery and smashes public restrooms - potentially dangerous to other people, and surely poisonous to society as a whole.

The same kind of guy that would ban flourine no doubt. Oh wait no that's a different kind of anti-social.

You probably meant fluoride. You don't really want fluorine in your water.

Good catch. :D

Isn't Portland in a drought right now? I know California and Washington don't have a typical snow pack in the mountains this year so I assume the same is true of Portland. Considering conditions this year, doesn't this seem like a poor decision?

This is almost as horrendous as someone adding fluoride to Portland's water supply!

I think the trial-by-media may have been far more dangerous than any health effects

What if he had a disease?

What if he did? The water is already chlorinated, urine is sterile thanks to the way kidneys work, and the concentration is still on the order of billions to 1. If you want something to worry about, worry about bird poop and animal carcasses - if chlorination is good enough to deal with those, it's good enough to deal with some sick guy's water.

Ah right, forgot about chlorination. Then yeah I agree it's silly. I knew it would be diluted but I wasn't sure if the disease would multiply in the water. I guess it needs a host's nutrients to feed on. EDIT: or not? maxerickson below cites an example.

And yes the thought of drinking bird poop is disconcerting. Does this reservoir hit some sort of treatment plant or other sort of filter before hitting Portland's faucets?

They aren't perfect, but water treatment systems will do much to mitigate any presence of disease. There are federal and state standards and regular testing of water supplies.

(There are biological contaminants in any surface water, so you need treatment whether humans are peeing in it or not.)

Edit: Oops, they are dumping treated water. The 4 ppb in a sister comment makes a good case though.

It too would be diluted down to 4 parts per billion and not matter.

It's not about parts per billion or what other animals do in the reservoir, it's about irrationality and phobia of pee that came out of humans; and to work with irrationality (to keep people drinking the water as opposed to switching to bottled as a result of this knucklehead), overreactions, like draining the whole thing, might be the right move.

How can that be the right move? If everyone stopped using water and there was a massive run on bottled water, it might be worth doing as a concession, but doing it pre-emptively is nonsense. What irrationality are we going to have to pander to next?

The right move is to educate people how to properly evaluate risks so that you can avoid the overreactions.

That was my thought as well. I'm not sure what the likelihood of a disease contaminating the entire resivoir is, but regardless wouldn't the water be sterilized before it hits the tap? After all it's exposed to other wildlife.

The disease would have to be transmitted via urine, then it would have to survive in mostly clean water for what... days? Months? Years? and then it would have to be effective after normal consumption. I'm not aware of any disease that would be transmitted this way.

There are occasionally outbreaks associated with municipal water supplies. I remember a big one from Milwaukee in the early '90s, looking it up, it was caused by a protozoa, cryptosporidium. They can be pretty durable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidium#Life_cycle

Good point. There are federal rules in place to address that very issue, as a direct result of the outbreak you mention: http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/rulesregs/sdwa/lt2/index.cfm

Essentially, the options are cover your reservoirs or put filtration & disinfection systems in place.

I remember that. Was a kid at the time and I swear it felt like we had to boil water for months :D

Reply on news.ycombinator.com