Why can’t America get the sidewalk café right? | Hacker News Reader

Why can’t America get the sidewalk café right?

thesmartset.com

66 pointskitcar77 comments

I once did a non-simultaneous home exchange with an elderly couple from Rome (I live in Vancouver).

When they arrived, they asked where the "Piazzas" are here in Vancouver - to sit and enjoy a communal public space.

I was at a loss - there really aren't any public spaces designed for just watching the world go by here other than the beach, which closes at 10p - cops zoom up and down on 4x4s kicking people off the beach.

The woman said something that stayed with me and, I think, is true: "You know, in Europe homes are small, there are many public spaces, and life is lived in the streets. In North America houses are bigger, people have more land and entertain at home, and life is lived at home."

The entrance of the Vancouver Art Gallery is used this way a little bit. But the Spanish Steps it is not.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.282485,-123.121549,3a,75y,69....

Why do they close the beach?

Most beaches I've been to close around dusk - some patrol and some don't.

Likely because someone sued them for letting the beach go un-patrolled at night. If it's closed, they don't have to pay anyone to patrol it.

Why does the beach have to be patrolled? Are the beaches you're referring to privately owned?

Public parks are often closed at night to keep people from doing various bad things there at night: drug dealing and prostitution are the two big ones.

Having the spaces closed at night also lets the police toss out any homeless people who might use it to bed down for the night.

That's really interesting to hear (I live in Vancouver too). I think it maybe also speaks to our North American culture of drive to work, stay at work, drive to home, stay at home... though I've heard that Vancouver is quite decent (compared to other North American cities) for having a downtown with actual people living there... similar to NY.

Not only that, I live in a medium sized town(by europen stadars) of 400,000. When you go walking around you develope relationships with the people that lives around you, also you meet and start talking with random people you know but don't meet usually. As we are a social species this is really missed when is lacking. It's also surprisngly good for all kinds of networking effects, not only business but personal needs like doctors, home contractors, schools, you name it. Not only directly (you meet the doctor friend of your father), but also indirectly, getting recomendations.

Even in europe this has diminished an order of magnitude, my grandmother that used to live in Madrid before the spanish civil war, tell us (she is still alive at 98) that they used to know not only all their building, or their street, but their city neighborhood. Who was the son of who, jobs, personal problems, there was a great deal of comunal help.

I've only found this in contemporary Habana, everybody seems to know everybody when you walk at the city center.

That's why we use social apps, and elderly people sees that goship programs (in Spain is an epidemia). We need social contact, knowing what's happening around us, and the modern live style had made this need a business oportunity for Facebook et Al.

My wife is a doctor and a lot of people that comes to see her has the need to "confess" all their live. I guess a lot of psicological problems at developed countries are due to this lack of social human contact(not only family and close friends).

I have social anxiety. The idea of going outside and socializing with strangers is panic inducing. I wholeheartedly agree this is because of the environment of having a culture of socializing face to face. Of course right now the idea of changing the culture is scary.

Where are you from?, I find that the idea of social anxiety is almost non existant in Spain (there is people less social, but doesn't seem to be a big issue, or super common), but I find that it's a common conversation topic in the states. Maybe you've been raised in an hambient that makes you more prone to experience social anxiety.

Also when I go out I don't do it with the idea of meeting strange people, but you do find people you know from time to time. And also you know you can have a nice conversation in the cafeteria at your street or the book shop.. It's not an anonimous and impersonal experience (although you may go the other way and have one if you wish, is not a big brother situation)

I'm from the US. My mother also has anxiety which influenced me a lot.

Here in Japan, homes are small, there are not many public spaces and life is lived at work.

For entertaining guests and parties, life is lived at karaoke parlours and izakayas (as opposed to having parties in the home).

Sounds like an anthill. Shame.

Shopping malls.

Too much travel done by car in the US.

Sidewalk cafes in Europe thrive off foot traffic to and mass transit and bicycles.

All those cars require all the parking lots. Parking decks are too expensive for every little cafe to build. So the businesses group to pool the parking cost. A strip mall.

You want a cafes scene? Get rid of most the cars.

This is one of the critical things that put the lie to the claim that parking spaces = customers. Cars get rid of customers, so you have to put in parking spaces just to get some of them back.

The streets are too damned wide. America's streets were too wide even before cars. More here:

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2013/112413.html

No kidding. Check out this blog to see what difference street width makes. The author narrowed LA's streets using Photoshop and it instantly feels more livable: http://narrowstreetsla.blogspot.de

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing

It's still cars; it's just that the problem was never the automotive engine. Old World cities were patterned after layouts that were based around people walking. Then we started riding horses, pulling around carriages, etc. By the time you get to the Western frontier, the vast open space inclines you to spread out your buildings.

I live in Boulder, CO and they definitely get it right. It really depends on where you are. The same goes for Europe.

We are all very critical of our own country. Visiting a country is not the same as living in that country. You don't necessary see it the same way and the grass is always greener on the other side (especially in Ireland :) ). So I have the impression that the author is overreacting a little.

You are correct about Boulder, however, Europe gets it right more often.. I can name many more cities in Europe that get it right. Rennes, Paris, Marseilles, Aix-en-Provence, Barcelona, Den Hague, Amsterdam, Prague, Rome, Florence... just off the top of my head.

I feel the same way. It definitely varies from neighborhood to neighborhood, and even street to street. I think he was trying to hit a resonating sentiment but experiences are so varied I think he failed.

I do not think they are overreacting. There is just nothing in the U.S. which is akin to Parisian "side-walk cafes." I have been longing for these here, and I would drive a good 15 minutes if I had to. Well at least there aren't any I know of in Orange County, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Hawaii which are about the only places where I lived here.

Lots of european cities have pedestrian zones, usually in the historical center of the city, there also aren't as many malls. The traditional medieval european city layout has market, town and church squares at their core and those are still places of public gathering today.

because in most US cities the sidewalks are too narrow, the streets are too wide, traffic too loud, and service not up to par. but this is a mundane argument; of course it is. that's what we're trying to change; that's the point.

it depends highly on the city (and even neighborhood within city), but we should not fault anyone for trying and we should patronize the establishments that offer sidewalk service as often as we can, even if it's sub-optimal.

What's wrong with the service?

in the us, most restaurants/cafes are geared toward indoor service. if you sit outside, in the worst case you can easily go 20 minutes without seeing the wait staff, including after you first sit down.

You've found the staff to visit more often in Europe? I had the opposite experience.

Dunno about you but I occasionally get "Forgotten"

Also some waitstaff tend to get really pissed off about having to go outside out of the A/C for even a minute.

In my experience, getting forgotten by restaurant staff is much more common in Europe than the US.

For example, the fact that you don't get to call the waiter -- they will visit you when they think they have to. And if you raise a finger, in US it's mostly taken as an offensive gesture.

> service not up to par.

If french cafés get things right, I doubt service is a problem. Many cafés barely have service, if you want to be served you go to the counter and get whatever you need, then you go back to the terrace.

If you optimize for cars, you get cities optimized for cars.

Funny that it was a American (Christopher Alexander)who write the most concise recipe for getting this right in "A Pattern Language." Pattern 88, Street Café.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language

http://www.jacana.plus.com/pattern/P88.htm

Hey, we get it right at a couple places in Seattle, but the fact is here the weather isn't right for it. But in general I feel the sidewalks are too narrow, largely because the streets are too wide (and the wide streets lead to another problem, sitting next to traffic).

Design walkable cities, and sidewalk cafes will appear as if by magic. Or rather, the same way they have appeared in thousands of cities and walkable neighborhoods worldwide throughout history!

Where would you recommend in Seattle? I see a few places here and there but they are so small that I can't depend on being able to get a spot when the weather is nice.

In LQA at least, check out Zingarro (for a nice cup of coffee and maybe a pastry, and a lasting relationship with your barista, probably James) or Citizen (for a sandwich and a drink outdoors, and Dustin is a pretty great server).

I'm in Belltown within easy walking distance so I will definitely check those out, thanks.

Sorry, didn't see this. Most of my recommendations are on capitol hill. Bauhaus used to be a great spot. I love Joe Bar personally, but seating is extremely limited. The cryptobucks/roy st coffee and tea has lots of space, though, and it's not so bad. Cafe Presse has a few tables that are nice, though it ends up in shadow fairly early.

Drat. I want a place called Cryptobucks, where drinks are purchased with cryptocurrency.

As a European, I greatly enjoyed downtown Palo Alto for this. In SF, north beach gets it fairly right, but that seems to be it.

I really like Palo Alto for exactly the same reason. Nice sidewalk cafés and very walkable.

There are a couple of places in Hayes valley that do a decent job, but they're pretty small unfortunately.

In Britain, come summertime, most people would prefer to be sat at a trestle table in the beer garden of a pub rather than being awkwardly perched on some pavement outside some cafe. Cafe culture is not for us - unless it comes with a greasy spoon... The streets are too noisy, the council charges cafes for those chairs and the weather does not help.

I haven't really thought about it before, however, I don't think that the U.S. has a lot of what we Brits would recognise as a quality beer garden, whether it be attached to a pub/cafe/restaurant/mall matters not, neither does the location (in the UK the best beer gardens are in villages).

Is this true or am I imagining things?

Beyond reasons of urban sprawl and car culture, are there any reasons for this, e.g. prohibition back in the 20's?

I've noticed more beer gardens popping up in the US along with the growth in microbreweries.

Seattle has started experimenting with "Parklets[1]" recently. The city gives up the right of way, and the businesses that sponsor them pay to build them, but can't restrict it or turn it into an extension of their space. It's an interesting notion.

[1] http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2013/06/capitol-hills-firs...

I feel like Boston gets this right, particularly in the Back Bay, but also in a number of other neighborhoods.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.349106,-71.084347,3a,75y,338...

Boston shares a lot of characteristics with European cities: relatively narrow streets, decent public transit, lots of foot traffic, so that may have something to do with it.

Murphy Avenue in Sunnyvale gets it right on some weekends, when it is closed for traffic. It is primarily a pedestrian street and only a few people (who deserve contempt IMHO) ever drive or try parking there.

By the way, anyone knows what prevents from closing Murphy for cars? I'm seeing attempts to do that http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_18390412 but no progress so far. It looks like some business (cafe) owners oppose that. Should we try obtaining their names and advice them not to oppose closing Murphy for cars?

The area around Mint Plaza in SF, specifically at and around Blue Bottle, does this well. This was achieved by closing off that street to vehicle traffic, and allowing only people on foot and bikes in that area.

I bet the OP has traveled to only a few cities. New Orleans gets it right. NYC definitely doesn't, and it's a no-brainer why, it's crowded as heck.

The author explicitly mentioned enjoying a site in New Orleans.

And in New York.

I would give Delachaise (New Orleans) props as somewhere that tries and mostly succeeds at this vibe. They are a bit more sealed off from the street than I'd like, though.

East/West village in NY are fine.

Actually, I think areas with more density are actually better for achieving what the author describes.

I would say more density would be mandatory.

That can't happen without massive (and forcible) population relocation.

For example, the UK has a smaller land area than Oregon, but has ~64 million people, compared to ~4 million for Oregon. France is smaller than Texas, but has 66 million people compared to ~26 million for Texas.

The idea of "just getting rid of cars" will never happen for a similar reason. The U.S. is too big and there are way too many people who live outside the range of any reasonable public transit system that's been devised so far.

Maybe it will happen someday, but I don't think so.

Vishaan Chakrabarti actually specifically defines a city as "30 dwelling units per acre" or "population dense enough to support train-based transit". Latter is paraphrased.

Hmm... I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a definition of city that excludes (e.g.) Los Angeles and Dallas-Fort Worth.

Reading what I wrote above in the light of day makes it sound like I'm advocating forcible population redistribution. I'm not... just pointing out that a European-style urban environment probably can't happen in the low densities typical of the United States, and that the only way to achieve such densities here would probably require force (which would be a bad thing, IMO).

I haven't finished reading his book, so I can't speak to the context in which he says this.

I guess it depends on what you consider force. If you stop encouraging suburb development, would that be force? It would certainly promote such redistribution, but I wouldn't consider that force. As another HN link noticed, this kind of financial incentive to move into the city has already started happening, but it has been a bottom-up bit.

IMO, removing subsidies wouldn't be force, but raising taxes would.

Paris (55,000/sq mi) is twice as dense as New York City (27,778.7/sq mi) (numbers from Wikipedia). It's one of the densest cities in the Western world.

Edit: though I suppose if you consider Manhattan to be "New York" then that is more dense (70,825.6/sq mi) than Paris.

Ray Oldenburg wrote the influential book about this topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

I read it years ago so I'm less familiar with how it's viewed today (with the rise of virtual third places).

I'm always happy to take people out for a drink here in Padova, where there are a number of great places downtown. I would really, really miss the city center here were I ever to move back to the US.

I'll add something to this: you can serve alcohol in sidewalk cafe's here in Italy, something I did not say mentioned in the article. Alcohol usually has very good margins, which provides part of the economics for everything.

Cafe du Soleil & Bean There in SF's Lower Haight get it right. Steiner is a good street for a sidewalk cafe, trees, wide sidewalk and victorian houses.

Too many homeless people on the sidewalks?

Because it's full of Americans.

I know you're being facetious, but it's not an unreasonable point. All attempts to create a pavement cafe culture here in the UK have failed, 24-hr licensing to serve alcohol turned out to be a mistake. The British simply don't drink in the same way as the Italians. We like pubs, not bars or cafes-that-serve-wine.

You might as well write an article wondering why you can't bring an American "spring break" drinking culture to France...

England does also not have the right weather. It is much nicer to sit outside in the evening and enjoy a whine, if you are not freezing.

The funny thing is I live in Barcelona, which definitely has cafe culture. In the middle of winter it can be only a few degrees, but (Spanish) people will still sit outside the cafes with their jackets and scarves, rather than go inside.

That's interesting. Is this connected to the smoking ban or has it always been like this?

(Of course, I'm assuming that Spain has a smoking ban. May be wrong!)

I think it was the same before the ban as well.

Right that's what I was trying to convey in my lazy comment. It's not about architecture, weather or whatever else. Americans just generally aren't interested in sipping coffee while people-watching or exchanging political, religious cultural views with anyone less than an intimate friend for a couple of hours out of the day. Their cultural DNA simply lacks the propensity for that kind of activity.

Americans unwind in one of two extreme ways: individual reclusive zen retreats or challenges (yoga, spa treatments, rock-climbing..) or over-the-top social interactions (heavy drinking gatherings, fancy dinner parties, themed events).

Sure there are exceptions as some have mentioned, but they don't make up enough of a critical mass for it to have a meaningful impact on the culture as a whole.

You're mistaking effect for cause. Americans aren't interested because they've been acculturated not to.

Exactly. And we've built an environment where it's not possible or not pleasant to build these types of places.

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