To don't (2012) | Hacker News Reader

To don't (2012)

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37 pointserbdex60 comments

I don't agree with the author. A to-do list is a way to reduce the cognitive burden of to-do ideas popping at the wrong time when you can do nothing about them and then forgetting about them when it's the right time to do them..

I agree that most of us (and I include myself in us) are incompetent at managing our to-dos though.

I think we need a better methodology than GTD to tackle to-do list.

What Jeff is saying, and I agree, is that our human brain is quite capable of keeping a list of things to do - if that's all it takes to get things done. Unfortunately, it isn't.

It's not that we forget about the tasks, but that we subconsciously do not have any interest to complete them. He suggests that we ask ourselves why that may be the case. Fixing THAT, by some introspection, instead of introducing a contrived method of managing your tasks such as a list is the only reliable and lasting method of getting things done.

Boy is this relevant to me right now!

I totally agree with you. todo lists are necessary to reduce cognitive burden. It is absolutely necessary due to the non-linear way that tasks appear in your linear timeline of life..

But maybe Jeff Atwood in his position doesn't need a todo list. He can probably afford to not have a todo list. Or more specifically to have only 2-3 things to do for the next day.

Probably, less "successful" people than him have to do daily a more diverse things, from grocery shopping to coding.

But maybe I am just wrong, tied in my todo-list-mania...

Todo lists fail because they lack consequences. If you don't do something on your list it's no worries, still there the next day. And the next. And the next.

Calenders work because they have an implicit deadline. Todo lists should follow this same philosophy.

What I would like to see is a todo list where the list is empty at the beginning of each day. So you only can put things on your list that are achievable by the time you go to sleep. This means if you forget something it simply disappears. You have to put it on your list for the next day.

I find a to-do list is great as long as you don't take it too seriously. When I have a sort-of-good idea - not good enough to drop what I'm doing now, but good enough that I don't want to forget it - I add it to the list. When I have some free time and want something to do, I check the list - and usually nuke most of it, because I've come up with better ideas, but occasionally there's a good one working there. Why waste brain capacity remembering things when I can outsource the job?

Yes, "keep it all in your head" is a seriously terrible idea, unless your life and work are both amazingly simple and straightforward.

You don't necessarily need an elaborate system. You don't need to follow GTD to the letter. But keeping stuff written down (in a reliable, visible place) is a huge mental relief.

I'm wouldn't call that a "to-do" list, more of an ideas list. Pedantic difference maybe, but to-do lists imply responsibility to do it along with the stress that goes with that. Or at least I feel that way (as it seems, does Jeff).

I think making that distinction is a mistake. All lists are obsolete the moment they are written down, but so what? The point is to review the list often enough that no problems are caused.

I've had success with leaky todo lists. Basically, write yourself a todo list for, say, today, then at the end of the day, trash it, pretty much regardless of how far you made it. If a task is to survive the next day, it should get there "organically" rather than by being blindly copied. If you find yourself copying a task more than three or four times, that's a clue to drop the priority. (Only a clue. Sometimes things happen that don't really release you from any todo obligations, like sick kids, but it's still at least a clue.)

Though I tend to find this is more useful for weekends when I have to figure out what maintenances tasks to do than anything to do with programming.

For development, another approach is to just learn to live with the Katamari ball. Yes, my project has about 1500 open "bugs"/issues. That's life. The only todo-ed-ness that I accept is that I need to at least look at the incoming list and deal with them somehow, but "clearing the list" isn't on the table, so why stress about it at all? Some people can't seem to do this, so they'll have to seek other solutions, but this works for me.

The concept of a to-do isn't necessarily bad, but not having a personal workflow of reviewing and prioritizing stuff at a regular interval (consider it a personal scrum meeting) renders it useless.

I prefer the concept of Monday (sometimes Sunday night) for planning and prioritizing my week. And a Friday review (or postmortem for the week).

There's some good stuff over at Scott Hanselmans's blog [1]

Also, this concept of three items and a flow is discussed in the following, "Getting Results the Agile Way" book [2]

[1] http://www.hanselman.com/blog/ScottHanselmansCompleteListOfP...

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Results-Agile-Way-Personal/dp/...

A big win for me was separating my "todo list" (a list of lists that covers all my responsibilities) from my "agenda" (a non-negotiable contract with myself regarding today, and only today). If my agenda has more than 3 things on it, I consider that a red flag, e.g. I'm playing catchup or overestimating what I'll accomplish in one day.

Todo lists are important as reference documents. But my agenda is what I use to set and keep focus and maintain 'now' productivity (as opposed to 'when I get organized' productivity, which is what a giant todo list promises).

FWIW I use Trello for todo list(s) and TeuxDeux (as a pinned Fluid app) for my agenda.

Check out http://weekplan.net that allows you to do exactly that. It is inspired by the 7 habits and some bits of GTD. (and a fellow HNer made it :))

I will. As much as I love TeuxDeux's simplicity, I believe it's not under active development anymore.

Without a todo list, how would you remember to pay your property tax before the deadline?

Usually by sudden panic: Wait, what date is it? Did I pay already? When's the deadline? Is it tomorrow? Shit, I'd better pay for the extra fast transfer.

At least, that's how my VAT payment went this year.

Strictly speaking, that should go on your calendar...

A calendar is just a different way to organize a todo list :)

My calendar is my todo list. If I don't get the thing done, I drag it forward a couple days.

You could be much more efficient by separating next actions from date-triggered actions.

Why? If I have some free time and I'm looking for work to do, I can always just look at the calendar entries for upcoming days.

Because everytime you review your future calendar entries you have to read, process, and skip over all the stuff that actually is tied to the time it is written down (e.g. appointments and such). By keeping your list of next actions separate from your calendar entries you make sure that at any given time you are reviewing just what you need to.

Deleted comment

Because every task has a deadline, and you should only look at the task on the day that it must be finished.

Which works great until a task takes more than a day to accomplish, you're busy on the due date, or you need someone else's help, and they don't appreciate having to drop everything they wanted to do on that day so they can help you before the looming deadline.

You shouldn't have anything on a todo list that you cant actually do anything about. In the original example we were talking about property tax: that should be on the calendar the day that you have the information necessary to pay the tax. It then goes from there onto one of your to do lists.

Nah; then you just set a calendar reminder N days in advance.

Jeff seems to claim that having things written down in a list is mentally taxing, and perhaps for him it is, but I find I have the exact opposite experience. When I have too many little things that I need to do, I find that writing them down and then tucking the list away while I'm working really helps me reduce my stress levels. While I'm working I'm not constantly anxious that there is something I'm forgetting to do or thinking that there is something that I should be doing, and if I think of something while I'm working, I just add it to the list, instead of having to stop and think if I should do it now or if I'm going to forget it.

Also, for me (as someone with ADD), having a list with the exact next thing I should be doing as soon as I finish something seriously reduces the chance that I get completely distracted and waste a half hour switching between tasks.

I have about 25 items on my to-do list. All serious tasks, that need to be completed, for customers/co-workers, over the next couple of weeks.

What on earth makes anyone think that I could just "Do one thing"? Unless that one thing is "Check my to-do list, and get the next item on it done."

I think you're essentially talking about something different to what Jeff is. At work, you're there for a set period of time. You have a number of objectives, you do as many as you can in order of priority and convenience, and at the end of the day you go home and do something else.

Managing the rest (i.e. getting your car serviced, working on personal projects, learning a new language, going to the gym, meeting up with that old friend, etc etc etc) is harder because it sits in the back of your mind constantly, and can lead to the kind of emotional burnout he mentions.

Which is why you put it on a list you regularly review, and get it off your psyche. What is Jeff's point then? I couldn't grok it from the article.

Jeff doesn't say "If you're a CEO then you only want 3 items on your to-do list and you should base that on which ones you remember each morning". He makes _general_ advice which he appears to think applies to everyone.

That does sound more like an issue tracker, though.

An issue tracker _is_ a to-do list.

It's a list of things I have to do in order to fix bugs, add functionality, get code into production, get documentation into shape, etc, etc, etc, etc.

" All serious tasks, that need to be completed, for customers/co-workers, over the next couple of weeks."

Are they all inherently serious tasks? Or have these people told you there are important? Have you ever tried to simply ignore a request? I personally have found that in most cases, if a request is truly urgent, you will know it.

I can't speak for the GP, but I've found (as a student), that writing down the things I have due or have to accomplish by a certain date on my calendar frees up a lot of mental energy.

I'm not a big fan of todo lists, but I am a proponent of keeping yourself organized. By writing things down I stop worrying about forgetting to do something. Of course, that's not the same as a todo list. Usually I just look at my calendar each morning and pick 2-3 things to get done for the day. That way I get the benefit of focusing on only a few things while having the peace of mind of knowing that I'm not missing anything important.

That really is exactly the same as a to-do list. A daily to-do list.

>I personally have found that in most cases, if a request is truly urgent, you will know it.

Why not just take care of a task ahead of time before it becomes an urgent matter? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all.

If you think a task or request isn't required or should be modified then discuss it with the requester or at least let them know you can't completely the task.

Otherwise you mess with other people's workflows and are just one of those people who doesn't play nice with others.

Yup, all of them need to get done, or someone's functionality isn't going to make it into production.

My to-do list is on a paper. I wrote it with a pen.

I'm not cramming my entire life in there, just the crappy errands and chores that I need to do. Otherwise I'd forget to do something, or be distracted by something I need to do later. Also when I finish my tasks I know that I'm really finished, and I'm not constantly thinking "did I forget something?" or "What else did I have to do while I was out?"

I feel there would be no use for a to-do app. To-do lists are just too low tech. Making it an app just makes it too complicated. Note: that doesn't mean don't digitize it if you want to.

Todos don't work because they suck at helping people plan and focus on what really matters.

I like some of the concepts taught in the 7 habits of highly effective, like:

- Instead of a todo list, use a weekly planner to get a higher level of perspective on your planning and achievements.

- List all your areas of responsibilities (husband, friend, brother, etc...) and set goals to make progress in these areas every week. This helps you lead a balanced life. No area go neglected for too long (like it is easy to do when you obsess over your business)

- Schedule the tasks that help you make progress towards your goals in your calendar, to prevent other less important things to get in the way. (First Things First)

I believe that some people on HN would benefit from the tool I developed http://weekplan.net which tries to use software to encourage a better planning behaviour. Please check it out if you are looking for an alternative to todolists or your own brain (please stop thinking you are ok with keeping it in your head. The day you dump everything you have got in your head into a system you trust, you will feel the relief and will never come back. Without a good external system to store your tasks, your brain is constantly reminding of what you need to do, and this is a waste).

> If you can't wake up every day and, using your 100% original equipment God-given organic brain, come up with the three most important things you need to do that day – then you should seriously work on fixing that.

This is simply the stupidest argument I've encountered recently. People possess various mental abilities, and the condition of one's mind is not necessarily stable throughout their life, every single day. I've had some days, wherein I woke up 5 minutes before the alarm went off, with the exact plan of that day I've made before sleeping in my head. But there are only so many of these days in my life; I am usually very forgetful, and a to-do list is way more precious than anything for me [1].

Mr. Atwood may bear a superior brain similar to that of Tesla's, but what most mortals bear is better for processing than storage.

[1] In case anybody is in pursuance of a decent note-taking workflow, I use Any.do and Zim (OSS desktop wiki) in combination. I've found out that a personal wiki is quite handy, especially if one is careful and ardent about organisation, and the software allows for efficient search.

Keeping stuff to do in your head is a terrible idea.

Writing stuff down is hard. This is common. The process of solidifying ones garbled thoughts that sound ok in their head onto paper/app into meaningful notes is hard and thus people avoid it. Not that lists are ineffective. Getting into a habit helps and is usually the start.

I like to think of to-do lists as an extension of my memory. Just like other tech and products I now rely on daily to get stuff done. Even this computer I write this on to communicate long distance.

Our brains are incapable of holding (depending on who you ask) a lot of stuff in short term memory. And naturally the stuff you try to hold in your brain over time fades away into nertherworld. Only to resurface later as a feeling that you forgot to do something. Panic sets in. You might remember it. And under stress while stressed you plow through it as though it is a priority pushing everything aside. Later realizing the stuff you pushed aside was just as important and you missed that too.. sounds all too familiar? yes an unorganized mind is constantly reactive vs proactive.

We know from GTD that all to-do list items need to be processed (filed) and then possibly pushed into a reminder system i.e. calendar. Then it has an urgency attached to it.

Furthermore, to-do lists are awesome for the moments you sit there wondering what to do next. Open your to-do list app and bingo. Work assigned to you immediately. Get stuff done! :-)

btw, if anyone wants to give my to-do list app with pomodoro technique a shot and provide feedback please do. iPhone only: http://www.gsdfaster.com/

Maybe this is the app some of u here needed to finally get into the habit of getting stuff done using to-do lists ;-)

I too, have tried countless amount of to-do apps, and none of them stuck with me for more than a week or so. It's frustrating. I look around me and see so many people use to-do lists, and it seems to work for them. So why then, does it not work for me?

I have no idea, but I have more or less abandoned trying to use a to-do list at all, simply because I work perfectly fine without one, so why change that?

Jeff mentioned 3 things, but I give myself a little more flexibility with that. Sometimes I can have 4 or even 5 if it's really necessary. But these are events or tasks that are really important to me. In fact, my mental to-do list usually takes at least a week or two to get fully "checked".

I wake up in morning reminding myself of the 3~5 most important things within my next week or week and a half. Things like securing a major contract, giving the best man's speech at my friend's wedding, maybe even writing a blog post (or simply coming up with ideas for one). Although I've been incredibly busy lately and have had no time to blog, I keep putting that on my mental to-do list every week, and it becomes part of the way I live. I start to notice things I want to talk about, give it some time to circulate in my head, then either discard it or write down the general idea for when I have time to write it. This works SO much better for me than the alternative.

How do I keep track of everything else? Simple. I make them routines. If I want to dedicate a year to learning chess, I dedicate time to it every week and treat it like any other important event in my life; it cannot be cut out unless it's absolutely critical. Having routines like these help me a lot with managing stress and frees my brain to consciously work on other things. Everything else that does not fall into the routine category or my top 3~5 to-dos is simply not important enough, and I cut them.

> I too, have tried countless amount of to-do apps, and none of them stuck with me for more than a week or so.

> How do I keep track of everything else? Simple. I make them routines.

Maybe it would be beneficial for you to apply idea in the second quote to the situation explained in the first one. There is no perfect to-do application, but getting used to one and exploiting it is better than having none.

I don't have a to-do list, so much as I have a to-do priority queue. New tasks enter at one end, and the thing I do next comes out the other end. But more important, more urgent, and lower cost things can jump ahead in the line. There are probably a few things in there that have been waiting for years to get done, simply because they have such a low urgency, low importance, and high cost. Things like "build cool thing X without buying more power tools" or "learn to speak the tourist-relevant subset of language X" or "binge-watch show X on streaming service Y" consistently get shoved back behind "file tax returns" and "find and eliminate the smell" and "kill those rassafrassin', arglefarglin' ants before mowing again".

I thought this would actually be about maintaing a list of things not to do.

Which actually seems like a great idea. As Jeff correctly notes, you don't need a to do list for the things which matter. The things which pile up on to-do lists are the small, unimportant minutia which don't have any material impact on your life. All they do is drag you down with the cognitive burden of things you "should" be doing.

So, henceforth, I'm converting my "to do" list into a "to don't" list. A list of things I've given myself permission to never do and to never get distracted by.

If you are running on autopilot doing the same stuff each day (daily routine) then yeah no need to write your to-dos. But if ideas & tasks pop into your head daily then writing it down is a must. You are fooling yourself thinking your short-term memory is a sufficient tool.

Re the not to do list, aka Jack Dorsey's, yap its a great "daily reminder" when it comes to “changing habits”.

But you still need a list to remind you what to do that isn't part of your daily routine.

> But if ideas & tasks pop into your head daily then writing it down is a must. You are fooling yourself thinking your short-term memory is a sufficient tool.

I see ideas and tasks as fundamentally very different beasts. Ideas do indeed pop into my head from time to time, but they're never something that requires immediate action—I note them down and can find them when I need inspiration.

Tasks, on the other hand, are on the forefront of my mind if they're actually necessary.

Something becomes a task when there is an action associated with it. Let's call everything that comes into your mind as "stuff". Some of that stuff becomes actionable i.e. task, and some of it stored for later in a project bucket as say "business idea". Either way, both stuff should be collected. Once collecting stuff becomes a habit you will see how much stuff is actually in your head.

I thought the recommendation would be use Discourse or something like that. Seriously, this is like the first post in years by this guy that doesn't mention Discourse (thank god).

Please note that the article is from Oct 2012.

I get stressed out when I don't know what I need to do. A combination of scheduling appointments and writing down everything I need to get done dramatically increases my productivity by removing the "oh shit, I know I have to do something but I can't remember what it is" moments.

I agree with Jeff about the fact you should know the top three things you need to do each day, but lower priority items can - and do - find a way to slip through the cracks without some kind of to do list.

Seeing this cycle is tiring. People became obsessed with to-do apps (still not sure why, I guess as a demo for trying different styles of app development), then they all tried to be the most polished to-do app, now comes the to-do backlash where people decide to-do apps were unnecessary to begin with. Jeesh.

Only thing really hurting my "to do" list of org-mode is that I have about 3 different computers that would need to be synced with what I'm currently "doing." I'm sure there is a good way to sync my settings, but I don't know it right off.

I think it depends on what you need to sync, but I've also had this problem and have found something that works for me.

I use Sublime Text for both development and quickly "jotting" things down. I keep 2 copies in my Dropbox, which is installed on all my computers, and have 1 for work, another for personal. Anytime I need to jot something down, it gets synced to all my computers regardless of whether I need it to or not. I don't have to spend time thinking about it. It may seem weird at first but it's become second nature for me.

I could do a drop box style sync. Not sure why I'm avoiding that route, to be perfectly honest. There is even a route to do that with phones, if I recall.

What works really well for me is an Untitled.txt with a list. Since it's not saved there's always the risk of losing it but that's kind of the point. It forces me to deal with the most important things.

Better productivity tips:

1. Use your todo app but don't obsess over it

2. Stop reading asinine commentary blogs

TODO:

* write an AI which writes the todo list

* follow AI's todo list

I feel like I was just Rick-rolled.

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