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Comment by IvyMike | Hacker News Reader

To me, this is the wow part:

> After investigating, they determined that the car's front trunk had been opened immediately before the fuse failure on each of the three occasions.

The Tesla sure logs a lot of things.

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Yeah, in this specific case, it seems somewhat justified, but I'm really not sure how I feel about a car that logs that much.

Even though I use web apps that can log everything including mouse movement, something about such logging in the physical world still puts me off big time...

Would you feel better about an option that let you disable internal logging on the condition that your service/maintenance costs were raised substantially? The purpose seems to be to make diagnostic work easier, after all.

My Dad is a mechanic and I can tell you this would be a god-send for troubleshooting. However, as a private person, I have a lot of trouble with other people knowing my habits and who I visit when and where. Docs and Dentists take an oath not to tell for a reason. Mechanics and engineers do not. Also, an increased price is not acceptable. The default should stay the same, the increased logging should come at a premium if anything.

I don't know what they specifically log, but if they don't log car location, I'm not sure what "value" from a personal privacy standpoint, they would gain in knowing you open your doors 3 times before sitting down. Other than that you're OCD I guess :S. If they track location, then that changes my entire opinion. That's a trickier subject to handle.

Well, the timing of opening/closing of doors might be able to give you a radius from work to home. But since most repair shops know this to bill you, thats mute. If it logged when, then they would know your routine, but they could guess that anyways. Yeah, it's a bit paranoid, and logging it is less harmful than real time updating and tracking. Still, some of the guys that my dad worked with would not by ANY means be considered trustworthy people.

"Also, an increased price is not acceptable. The default should stay the same, the increased logging should come at a premium if anything."

I think BHSPitMonkey meant that if they didn't log in general, maintenance costs would be higher and the costumers would pay for it in one way or another.

Good point actually. They would be higher one way or another. Labor is the major expense in repair and it is billed by the hour. Hmmmm....

I would feel better about an option that encrypted all internal logging, and left me in charge of the key, so that I could give read-only access to the service technician, and then revoke it after the car was good.

But that's hard to do in a consumer UI.

Put the key in the actual key (or key fob, in the case of Tesla). Service technicians could use a "valet+" key that would get them access to everything except those protected logs, or read only access to the logs. If the customer were so inclined, they could volunteer the key+key to the technicians.

The key+key would be tamper resistant so that revoking credentials after getting your car serviced would be less necessary; just make sure they give you that key back.

Your phone is capable of logging a lot more than your car would.

Most people keep their phone in their nearly all day, even when they are supposed to be in the privacy of their bathroom.

It is a surprise that people accept such extensive logging. I hope Tesla is keeping the information safe (does the information leave the car? Or is it only accessed by technicians working on the car?)

I remember when people would be very angry about software that "phoned home".

Assuming they don't track your physical location, what's the issue here? What element of interaction do you have with your vehicle that would give you cause for concern if it were tracked? How often and when doors are opened and closed? Average speed? Average distance travelled per trip? Power consumption? Physical interactions with mechanical and electrical components within the vehicle?

In all honesty, I can't think of a single thing other than physical location that I would require privacy for when it comes to owning and operating the type of car Tesla produces.

"Our logs show the passenger door opening at 3:00 am on April 7, 2014, and the added weight is consistent with an adult female passenger. Wasn't that when your wife was away on business?"

Also, your phone is potentially tracking your location right now.

Maybe not yours, personally, but in general.

Hardware analytics, folks. This is fairly new territory. Really interesting to see the reactions.

I also feel like they could have deduced they needed to put the tape on the fuse without the logs. If they keep repeatedly fixing what seems like a problem that shouldn't be happening it would seem to make sense to take that precaution without having access to such logs.

They seem to have been right to, given the number of times people have setup to knock them down.

I think you'll find that most modern cars log a lot of things, and that it isn't something specific to Tesla.

It is for diagnostics and warranty reasons that these occur, as well as quality control.

I'm surprised the removal of a fuse wouldn't be logged. Unless it's the fuse that powers the logger.

The fuse removal gets logged as a fuse failure.

Of course. That makes perfect sense.

Wow is right. I do not like that at all. What I do in my car is my business, not Elon's.

What this guy did in his car appears intended to fuck Elon's business, so I'd say that's debatable to some extent.

So track everything about everyone in the event one person brings a lawsuit against the company? I'm not sure I'm going to consent to that.

Then don't buy a Tesla.

Well, if I were a GM exec, I'd try to get the same stuff on my cars to nip these things in the bud. In fact, I'd bet most execs are looking to do just that. The tech can be used on all cars and it makes sense to use it on all cars. At least, from the shareholder's side. What then? Do I not get to own a car? A 'then move to another country' argument is shallow. As consumers, we still have rights after we buy anything.

> if I were a GM exec, I'd try to get the same stuff on my cars to nip these things in the bud

If that were true, GM and all the other manufacturers would already be doing it. The tech Tesla is using for this is not new.

The main reason other car manufacturers don't do it is probably very simple: cost. You have to spend the money for the extra sensors in each vehicle, plus whatever hardware is storing the data and/or transmitting it to Tesla, plus you have to hire and train your own technicians to handle the data and interact with customers (other car manufacturers have their dealers do that, but dealers aren't interested in the kind of data Tesla is collecting).

Another possible reason is that other car manufacturers don't have enough of a problem with lemon law suits to make it worth using this kind of tech on their cars. I'd be interested to see data on that if anyone has any.

> What then? Do I not get to own a car?

If it ever gets to the point where every single car manufacturer is doing this, then yes, that would be your only option if you absolutely refuse to deal with it. (Unless you wanted to start your own car company.)

> As consumers, we still have rights after we buy anything.

But you don't have the right to force someone to sell you their product on your terms instead of theirs. Tesla is completely up front about what they are doing; buyers sign a long agreement that spells all this out, and if they don't like it, they are free not to buy.

You could try challenging the agreement in court, but I'm not sure on what grounds you would do that.

I don't think the reasoning behind the logging is really to prevent/provide evidence for lawsuits. I think it's more a case of log all the things so we can see what's relevant later and can use it to ensure the car stays working as long as possible. "The unreasonable effectiveness of data" has definitely permeated through to engineering and I'd just say they're good engineers that want good logs, with protection from litigation as a happy bones. That is my opinion though.

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