S.F. cracks down on Airbnb rentals
sfgate.com
sfgate.com
> "They thought it was OK to rent out on Airbnb because the company didn't tell them otherwise. Airbnb should be defending these tenants, or they should disclose to every person who rents in San Francisco that (short-term rentals are illegal) and tenants are being evicted."
This is interesting. If it is indeed illegal for any renter to use air bnb in San Francisco, then it seems logical to me that AirBnb should at the very least make the person renting out a place check a box that very clearly says
1) they own their own place
2) they have checked with their building, if its a condo or shared building, to ensure that its legal for them to rent out their place.
Usually leases forbid subletting w/o the landlords approval.
Further, from the article:
"San Francisco bans all residential rentals of less than 30 days unless the hosts have a conditional use permit - an expensive and cumbersome process that virtually everyone ignores. The ban applies whether the hosts own or rent, paying guests visit frequently or once a year, or hosts rent out a room or an entire dwelling."
So at least in SF - anyone using AirBNB at all is breaking the law, irrespective of one's lease or ownership status.
You don't. AirBnB is potentially creating a huge amount of legal liability for themselves. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Their entire business model, in fact, depends on it. Welcome to the "sharing economy", that is, the economy of ignoring the laws regarding what it is you're trying to do
EDIT2: I did not mean all laws. But law != morality. EDIT: Cool to know that this community downvotes due to disagreement. Or did this comment add nothing to conversation? I won't be commenting again.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
EDIT: "Or did this comment add nothing to conversation? I won't be commenting again."
No. It did not add to the conversation. While I will agree that, at times, laws are lobbied for that attempt to maintain the status quo, the vast majority of laws are to keep society in an acceptable equilibrium (i.e. my rights end where your rights begin).
Only in a world with unlimited supply. When demand peaks, you'll either have the price increased ("surge pricing") or people will have to go without when supply can't mean demand.
Yup. It's a meaningless comment that doesn't back up its aggressive assertion or expand on the mental leap it makes.
- Can you prove that laws are made to keep status quo?
- Why does that alone mean we should break them?
Check out e.g. this one: http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/04/thanks-to-a-private-public-...
Is it really a cartel extracting rent from consumers by leveraging limited choice or is it just me seeking my personal benefit (do not let the fact that I have never used NY taxi in my life distract you)?
Funny. I kind of like that there are laws on the books to prevent my neighbors from operating an unlicensed and uninsured (Airbnb doesn't insure the unit itself, building or grounds, just the personal possessions of the renter) hotel out of the building I call my home... and all the safety, fire, noise, and other risks that go along with it. Just because you personally don't like a law doesn't mean there aren't a majority of us out there that do.
And then all anyone complains about is how their neighbor is doing something they don't like with their own home.
As a result, I never would have thought AirBnB was a very good idea. But here we are, it's worth $10bn. I guess we will find out - either change the laws, redefine the activity, or stop it. Will be interesting to watch. Sucks for those who were evicted over it. I guess I was lucky.
not unlike things like Napster..
From the article:
"The law I'm using is that the city says there are hotels and there are apartments, and the two shall never meet,"
They have already met!
Clearly, the demand is huge due to the new realities: better technological infrastructure, disappearing middle class, high prices of real estate and high rents in urban areas, the desire to socialize.
The issues are just starting to surface and the laws will have to evolve and adapt.
EDIT, since I can't reply to the comment below:
"Demand is huge for what? For unlicensed short-term rentals that don't pay hotel taxes or follow regulations, thus saving money? This is not news. This is not a "new reality". In fact, it's why the regulations exist in the first place."
I agree with this but that's not among the new realities I was referring to.
Some of the new realities are:
- people have gotten poorer and don't mind the extra income; some needed it pretty desperately
- there is a trend of growing appreciation of urban areas which worsens the first problem
- people have learned to be willing to trust strangers due to the reputation/karma system
- the Internet has taught people to enjoy the social aspect: meeting interesting strangers
Demand is huge for what? For unlicensed short-term rentals that don't pay hotel taxes or follow regulations, thus saving money? This is not news. This is not a "new reality". In fact, it's why the regulations exist in the first place.
The real victims here are the neighbors and in the case of subletters, the landlords. No one gets upset when the triggerman goes to jail, even if they also wish the Don would go too.
"Well aware"... understatement.
As far as AirBnB is concerned, they provide a big chunk of their value serving as a "marketplace", not necessarily for <30 days sublets. Reputation management, escrow etc. Note you can enter in arbitrary check-in and check-out dates and they have a "/sublets" section as well.
Wiser for them to focus on this value proposition than try to navigate the red tape and ensure legality across the globe.
* Providing insurance subjects you to state regulation on insurance policies, which are more onerous than those governing warranties.
* Guaranties and warranties indemnify against flaws in a product or service; they protect you from wrongdoing on the part of (or foreseeable by) the vendor providing the service. Insurance indemnifies against damage that is potentially unrelated to the service itself.
The latter difference seems material for something like Airbnb, where the protections you need include liability claims by short-term tenants and liability claims for neighbors, some of which might arise not simply by malicious acts from those tenants but from things like "the tenant left the door unlocked and the whole building got broken into".
Either way: take a closer look at what Abnb is offering here; it's not like renter's insurance.
San Francisco bans all residential rentals of less than 30 days unless the hosts have a conditional use permit - an expensive and cumbersome process that virtually everyone ignores. The ban applies whether the hosts own or rent, paying guests visit frequently or once a year, or hosts rent out a room or an entire dwelling.
... though I'm not sure what the penalty is in that case, as you're not going to get evicted from your own home.
Of course they're skirting the grey area of the law to make a profit. At the same time, every single host who affirms that they're following the laws, when they are not, are at fault.
If you get into the landlord business without bothering to check on local regulations, why should it be AirBnB's fault. Craigslist doesn't make you check a big box that says "renting this out short term is illegal", why should AirBnB?
If you're like many people currently living in SF, you can't afford to rent an apartment at current market rates. You don't merely have to find a new apartment; you have to move to a different city. And guess what? If you worked in the city before, your commute costs likely just went up $100-$200 a month.
AirBnB absolutely should be bearing some responsibility here if they have been knowingly withholding information about the legality of subletting in San Francisco. Their risk very low, while the consequences for an unwitting AirBnB host are potentially life-altering in a very real way.
Big red warning: "by using in AirBnB in this zip code you are likely behaving as an illegal hotel and subject to eviction."
To reiterate, the consequences for AirBnB if a host is caught is virtually nothing. The consequences for the host are potentially severe.
AirBnB bears an ethical if not legal responsibility to clarify these laws for potential hosts.
Um, AirBnB is effectively illegal everywhere. The number of places it is legal dwarfs the number of places it is illegal.
Of course, if AirBnB decided to operate in places like Vandergrift, PA, people would welcome them (renting a hotel there is normally easy, but becomes a nightmare at times like high-school graduation because of almost no supply) as a way to cushion event-based scarcity.
Like Uber, these companies don't want to operate in the suburbs where people would welcome and defend them. They want to operate in the cities, show hypergrowth, and cash out for billions.
No sympathy for all parties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat
In the case of uber you might attempt to make the case that uber is enabling/encouraging/paying people to break the law. That is illegal by itself.
My point was that if AirBnB did anything which limited itself to operating in legal areas, it would be several orders of magnitude smaller.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Act
I have personally run into a guy who was subletting his unit out for twice his monthly rent. This is completely illegal and with good reason. The Ellis Act was not put in place to help renters make a little extra cash but rather to protect them from sudden rent increases.
I don't agree with The Ellis Act, in fact I wish it would die because while I think it was well-intended, it has too many unforeseen negative consequences and effects. And before you dismiss me as some teabagger conservative, here's Paul Krugman on the subject of rent control:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-...
And AirBnB should know better. No sympathy for them either.
Then, he will almost certainly come out in favor.
Good to see Krugman actually got something right
Implying that he (nobel laureate) is usually incorrect in his assessments?The problems are twofold: geography, and the fact that SF doesn't operate in a vacuum. Geographically, there's water on 3 sides and hills on the 4th. No matter what you do SF is always going to engaged in an uphill fight against density because it's almost as much of an island as Manhattan is. The vacuum is the bigger problem. Even if the mayor and board of supervisors agreed to abolish the planning commission tomorrow and hand out permits to any proposal compliant with building safety codes, it would not do much to accelerate building.
Why? Because neighbors would sue under CEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act. This allows virtually anyone to file a suit alleging that a negative impact on the environment or an insufficiency in the preparation of an environmental impact report, anywhere in CA. This is not just 'the environment' in terms of wild salmon or old-growth forest, though - it includes everything from air quality to aesthetics. I'm expecting to be invited to join a suit on this because I live close to a hospital which is planning a large expansion, and the neighbors a few blocks away are furious about the likely change in traffic patterns and noise during the construction phase, which will last a few years. I don't actually care about this, but on the other hand I have misgivings about the proposed siting of a helipad right across the street from me.
And this leads to the observation that while CEQA has become a go-to example of obstructive red tape/environmentalism gone mad in California, it's actually just a culmination of much longer-standing legal traditions benefiting property owners. Any place that you have sufficient density for people and businesses to annoy each other, property owners end up in court with disputes about who should give way to whom. Grumble as one might about property taxes, nobody wants the value of their property to go down, either on paper in the more abstract sense of having less enjoyment due to (say) a reduction in the pleasantness of one's view or the amount of sunlight one's garden receives (which factors ultimately affect the $ value of their property anyway). If you have paid $$$ to buy a fancy loft with an amazing view of the SF skyline, you and your neighbors are going to be most unhappy if some developer proposes erecting a skyscraper and replacing your view with that of a concrete wall 30 feet away. In a more general context, people are much less enthusiastic about paying property taxes for parks and schools if the erection of tall buildings blocks sunlight from ever reaching them (and that particular complaint is a frequent one in SF, where the hilly geography tends to exacerbate the issue).
The complaints of property owners carry a great deal of weight in arguments over planning, since they provide a large part of the current tax base (vs the hypothetical future tax revenue of any given development) and angry taxpayers are highly likely to vote out officials who don't do their bidding and vote in those who are willing to pass laws restricting the use or development of property. Indeed, annoyed property owners have historically not just objected to new development but have often successfully argued for a halt to existing land use which impacts their enjoyment of property: in a famous English legal case, Sturges v. Bridgeman (1879), a doctor bought a house in a nice neighborhood and then successfully sued a nearby candy-maker, who had been there for years, over the noise of the candy-making. The court reasoned that while the candy maker had indeed been there first, the business was much noiiser than anything else in the neighborhood and it was only a matter of time before someone brought it up, regardless of the fact that the doctor had 'come to the nuisance.' That seems wacky, but think about it in the context of a city like SF that used to have a lot more light industry inside the city borders. If you know the city well at street level, I'm sure you've come across places where there's a bunch of shiny new apartments and hip restaurants, stores etc., except for that one wierd lot with a run down small manufactory/liquor store whatever, that either doesn't fit with the neighborhood any mroe or whose customers have gone away due to changes in traffic patterns. The business situated there makes less and less money, the owners maintain it less and less well, and eventually someone launches a blight lawsuit in an attempt to force the current occupant out.
The practical upshot of this for development is that a developer has to take into account the loss-of-value that a project will impose upon neighboring property as a potential development cost, and a wise developer will secure their agreement by offering to pay that cost to the neighbors up front, because otherwise they'll probably just end up paying the same amount in damages later (unless they gamble on winning an arms race of legal transaction costs, which is much more viable in rural than urban areas).
After all, heaven forbid we allow property owners to have control over their own property at any time.
(I hope your second paragraph wasn't directed at me. I haven't given any indication of my opinions on the laws in question.)
But even if she just wanted to personally sunbathe in each room of the unit, WTH should such a landlord have to pay a cent towards the relocation expenses of the soon to be ex-tenant? I'm a pretty liberal guy in most ways, but this is utter BS entitlement IMO.
There are plenty of services (online streaming) that will tell you "sorry, our service is not available in your country/city/etc".
The fact Airbnb is allowing this to continue makes me question their ethics. It's all good they want to change the law but while they haven't had success in the area, is it worth the bad press and headaches for renters?
Because they get a cut?
Don't ascribe ethics to a company. Companies are not people. Companies don't care about ethics. They care about legal responsibility.
For a company that is based on trust (https://www.airbnb.com/trust) I expect more from them than the lowly behavior we're used to see from other well known corporations that don't care.
Laws and ethics are not the same thing. In fact, it is often ethical to break a law.
It seems that technology and culture have moved faster than law (shocking, I know) and that laws that might have been a good idea in one set of circumstances aren't anymore.
Does this mean that the law that says you can't do this is obsolete, or more relevant than it has ever been?
In the past, I was unlikely to suddenly discover that I live next to a hotel, because it was impractical. Now that it can be accomplished by going to a website, entering an address, and hitting the "create hotel" button, I need that legal protection.
If you think about a year's worth of rental cost, no matter how much you rent out your apartment for in those short term bursts, you're probably never going to even get close to breaking even. And especially if you're one of those people not in a booming industry, it can really help when you're out of town for a weekend or so to try and defray the cost of living. Because while rent is controlled, nothing else in this city is.
Additionally, how is renting out a "rent controlled" place at market rates not transferring income from the actual landlord, to the lessee, while defeating the "control" at the same time?
The contract that you're referring to doesn't give the renter the ability to then turn around and do whatever they want with the living space for their own financial benefit.
Let's say everyone in San Francisco rents out their apartment for $200 once a month. Now landlords can raise the rent by $200, since people could afford the rent before, but are now making an extra $200 a month. Meanwhile, you, the person that doesn't illegally rent out their apartment, has to compete for apartments with people that can pay more because they break the law.
That's where the angst is coming from.
Naturally the reality is vastly more complicated but I believe that's the basic reasoning behind the "short term rentals drive prices up" line of thought.
Now this is definitely the case for cities like Paris, were the law exists but is not enforced. I don't know of it's true for San Francisco where the price is already high from high paid locals.
Whereas if the person can't profit from it and doesn't need it, they may simply downsize, allowing another renter who does need it to move into the unit and use all the bedrooms, giving a much higher load factor.
Not saying it's necessarily a good idea, but banning short term rentals can help increase the utilization, and thus the availability, of existing housing resources.
Furthermore, a lot of those I know who have an extra room and rent out on AirBnB are usually renting out to people actively trying to move to the city and need a place to stay (1-3 months) until they find a unit to live in. For those AirBnB hosts that keep a lease, almost all of them that I know are renting out on AirBnB for more than 30 days at a time (usually to people trying to move to the city), because its not convenient or cost effective to manage back to back short-term stays when you aren't living in the unit. At the end of the day, those subleasing are usually just absorbing the difference between the rent control they secured originally and market value, which would be absorbed by the landlord anyways the moment the lease was given up. i.e. If Bob rents a rent controlled unit from Alice at $1000 a month and then decides to sublet it at $1500 a month 2 years later to Carol, then Bob is making $500 dollars profit. However if Bob gave up the lease, Alice would rent it out again at $1500 to Carol anyways. Either way, Carol ends up paying $1500 a month.
In talking to people, I've heard countless examples of "master tenants" charging incoming roommates much higher rent than an "even split" on the rent. In one extreme, a tenant in a 3 bedroom was living 100% rent free while the other two tenants covered the entire costs - until they learned of this and moved out on principle. Tenants moving in as roommates on rent controlled apartments are apparently even offering cash bribes exceeding $1k for the privilege of obtaining a spot.
Quite the broken system, imho.
Someone who can afford $1500 a month is more likely to be gainfully employed with greater job security. They are also likely to be able to contribute much more to a household. Even if someone were to rent out a room for $500, it behooves them to select from the applicant pool those who are capable of paying $1500 a month.
Someone paying $500 and capable of $500 is less likely to want to contribute to common spaces and shared household necessities.
If you put a ad on craigslist for a room for $500 today, you would go mad trying to select for the best roommate. Absent other automatic filters for roommates, like being able to filter on lifestyle choices/preferences, the ability to afford a high rent is a poor proxy for other desirable traits, but better than the alternative of no proxy. It's not like craigslist currently let's me put an ad out that only allows considerate, easy-going roommates with no undesirable habits to apply.
Personally, I absolutely despise the situation that exists in the city and thinks everyone is selfish and unwilling to bell the cat by applying the only solution that makes sense: more housing. The landlords are selfish. Those with rent control are selfish. The homeowners are selfish. The only people who aren't selfish are those at the bottom of the food chain getting taken to the cleaners by the landlords, primary tenants on the lease and the homeowners blocking all zoning improvements.
I'm not poor, but I'm certainly not rich either. I earn enough to to live in this city, but certainly can't afford to live comfortably at $1500 a month, especially when I help out two other family members with money. That being said, absent other better systems for filtering, putting out a classified ad at a high rate is still a practical proxy for what you want in a roommate, even though I'm one of those filtered out by an ad for a $1500 room.
If you were a master tenant with a 3 bedroom for $1500 a month, would you put a classified ad for each room at $500 each? Answer honestly. I don't think anyone would (or does since I've never seen such an ad on craigslist and I know that there is no lack of rooms that should cost that much with ~175,000 rent control units in San Francisco.)
Furthermore, with supply as constrained as it is, nobody will actually read you ad or care what it is you want in a roommate. At $500, everyone will apply whether or not they actually meet your criteria. Let's say you want to live with single, pet-free non-smokers between 30 and 40 and you say so in your ad. Do you think that hundreds to thousands of people who don't meet that criteria will refrain from sending you an email for a chance at living in a $500 a month room?
To borrow the words of master spy Sterling Archer: Do you want anarchist protestors? Because that's how you get anarchist protestors.
No, I would grandfather in everyone in the city with rent control that currently has it and I would work on a legal mechanism that allows the grandfathered in right to rent control to be separated from the underlying property via a mechanism similar to one I've written about before here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7437658
Rent control messes up all housing markets, reducing the quality and quantity of housing for everyone. We can't undo the mistake that has been made, so the best we can do is find a way to phase it out in a way that allows the market to recover from rent control, but preserve the expectations of those that have come to rely on it. The city needs to increase the supply of housing and the way rent control currently works acts like a lock on a database. The city currently has ~175000 locks on n properties that are essentially undevelopable until you remove all the locks on the property.
I don't want rent control. I, and even most people with rent control, would actually be far better off in a parallel universe where San Francisco had never had rent control. Only those who have been in a property for decades actually benefit. The majority pay far more than they should be for the first couple of years and then in later years end up paying roughly what they would have in the parallel universe where rent control had never happened.
Furthermore, if you lifestyle changes and you want to raise a family, you've fucked yourself out of the market you love because you can't afford anything in the market by the time you decide you might want something different. When someone moves into a rent control place, they effectively check out of the housing market like an ostrich with their head in the sand. Basically, had they been back in the housing market every few years as their housing needs and expectations changed, they would have demanded more housing supply in the city. Rent control permits people to remain blissfully ignorant of the housing situation until one day something happens that causes them to be out of their unit such as an Ellis Act eviction. At that point I think to myself "boo hoo", because if they really wanted to live in a city forever they would have either bought property back when they first moved here or they would have demanded increased housing supply long ago so that they would never find themselves in a housing market they were priced out of. People who argue for rent control are downright selfish, since they basically get the benefits of a scarce good without any of the sacrifice (like saving for a down payment) and actively prevent developments which would reduce the scarcity so that others just like them that arrive later may also enjoy the benefits of living in a city like San Francisco.
I understand the ambiguity of a tenant virtually subleasing a property, which is a clause normally either allowed or not allowed in a tenant's lease, but the blanket ban of renting a room for a short number of days seems like a law that hotel lobbyists worked hard to get in place.
[1] Invoking the specter of "hotel lobbyists" is intensely amusing to me. If hotels had such good lobbyists, cities wouldn't have almost universally exorbitant (over 14% in NYC) hospitality taxes, which quite negatively affect the hotel industry.
Do you mean to imply that laws are inherently just and fair?
I dislike most housing-related regulations, but it's very difficult for me to find "injustice" in the commercial regulations voters (who are mostly property owners) impose upon themselves.
Beyond that, its hard to say the margins by which such a law passed. If a law passes by 51%, is it still difficult to find 'injustice' (This coming from a person in a state that passed a state constitutional ban against gay marriage by a similar margin)
Many landlords struggle because their tenants are paying below market rents. This is a particular problem in San Francisco, but also in other cities like NY.
On the one hand, you can say, "Joe taxi driver can barely afford rent, what's wrong with him leasing out his room when he's out of town?"
Then look at it from the landlord's point of view. They say, "I can't get a free market rent, because the law says that I can't evict Joe Taxi Driver. So I have to settle for less money, then he goes and rents the room out without paying me a dime."
Then look at Jane NewToTown. Jane says, "I would like to pay market rate for Joe's place. I can't, but if I want to stay for a few nights I can pay the renter who gets below market rates, rather than the landlord."
AirBnB isn't the cause of the problem - it exists because there is a problem that it being arbed.
It's unclear if Joe is now 'leveraging the fact that he cannot be evicted' because the cost of eviction is so high, and his 'aggressive rent-seeking behavior' is now merely an effort to make a little extra money on the moral hazard that has been dropped into his lap.
There is no rule out there that says that landlords have a right to their business model on their terms. I'm aware of several units in this city where the landlord grew up in a unit their parents purchased way back in the day, who then moved out of the city to the suburbs. They now profit handsomely because they self select for tenants that are likely to move out of the city or outgrow a unit.
I'm not saying cities should be an unzoned and unplanned free-for-all, but good intentions at the expense of capital have unintended consequences.
To oversimplify the supply and demand curve...
Let's say that there are 2 populations of people: - 100 people in Group 1 who can pay $500/month - 100 people in Group 2 who can pay $1000/month
Let's say that something (rent control, regulation, taxes, whatever) takes away $300 per month of what you would collect in rent.
Let's say that the cost of building an apartment building, amortized over time costs $400 per month.
You could build 200 units, and everyone is happy.
But with marginal costs higher than revenue for low income renters, you will probably just build the higher income housing.
This is oversimplified, but is what's happening in essence in New York and San Francisco. The well intentioned rent controls and other regulations are pushing the cost of development so high that builders are either neglecting the bottom and middle of the market, or skimping as much as possible when they're forced to address it.
We can argue that some of the regulation (no lead paint, etc) is good, but when you tilt the balance too far against the owners, then owners put their money elsewhere (stocks, bonds, etc.)
My hosts own their property and as a result I think they should be able to rent it out on a short term basis if they want to, they should have to pay a (small) percentage tax of the rate they charge though. I think the law should be looked at if for those who own their property. Villas in Europe are rented out legally all the time and it drives lots of tourism and provides accommodation at much better rates than hotels etc.
If the host rents, then their land lord should be able to evict them if they sublet and they're not allowed to - they agreed to the contract and they should stick to it.
SF and CA already charge plenty of taxes. There's no need for any extra.
The resistance to this tends to come from people who are concerned about the long term housing stock. It is most profitable to build a studio in your garage and rent it out on airbnb, it is somewhat less profitable to rent it out to a long term tenant, and it's far, far less profitable to build an extra bedroom for a growing family, cause small children don't pay rent and cost you a bundle in child care costs.
Allowing this sort of use would mean that in a bidding war (which is how all property in SF is sold), the people who plan to airbnb part of their house out will hold a huge advantage over someone who is looking for expansion potential for kids. So my take on it is, maybe we should zone some of the SF for single family use. Which, here in SF, we've actually already done.
That's the argument I'd make against allowing unlimited short term rentals in every single corner of SF. I would like to trade my right to engage in short term rentals in exchange for legally enforced expectation that my neighbors won't do this either, because I'd much rather have friends for my kids nearby than a neighborhood of short term vacationers.
We can disagree and resolve it at the ballot box, and I understand the problems with 50%+1 legislation. Some people won't like the outcome. So I guess I'd ask if you feel this sort of zoning in some parts of San Francisco (single family housing, no short term rentals) is so unjust that it is an unreasonable law that should (or must) be disregarded?
Uber provides a similar example by creating a "parallel market" for taxis and putting established companies (which comply with existing regulations) under extreme pressure. In general I'm a big fan of the "free market" model, but gaining an unfair advantage by just ignoring existing laws and hoping to get away with it is not a legitimate business practice, I think.
So people who have houses with an HOA, they don't technically own their house, they are just borrowing it from the HOA while paying the taxes, insurance, and doing all the work for them to keep the house up.
Furthermore overly punitive fines aren't allowed, and that rule does in fact have teeth (and is also abused by homeowners to make it more expensive to collect fines from them).
That means if you pay your dues, but not your fine, the only option the HOA has to collect is to sue you. Once you pass the maximum for small-claims, that starts to get really expensive.
Lastly, each homeowner has a common-interest in the HOA, including an equal vote in board-members. For large HOAs, that becomes fairly moot, but for smaller ones, it makes a difference.
Now HOAs aren't all sunshine and roses (I prefer to not live in one, primarily since common-interest property tends to be run quite inefficiently), but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.
> IANAL, but my understanding is that HOAs in California can't put a lien on your property for failing to pay fines, only for failing to pay dues.
Yes, however, most HOAs do have ways to make it difficult for homeowners who have become delinquent on fines. One common approach is that the CC&Rs allow a delinquent homeowner to be placed as "a member NOT in good standing", which means that the owner will be precluded from using the association amenities (pool, clubhouse, tennis court, etc.) or even being able to vote for board members, until the fine is paid off and the "good standing" is restored.
> Furthermore overly punitive fines aren't allowed, and that rule does in fact have teeth (and is also abused by homeowners to make it more expensive to collect fines from them).
Not only that, but the Davis-Sterling Act (which is the California state laws that govern common interest developments) as well as most of the local courts in California are very much sided towards the homeowner and against the overall community. Much of the Davis-Sterling Act was written and approved at a time when there was a lot of concern that large community developments would do things to abuse and harm the individual homeowner, or more specifically, that the will of the majority (within a CID) would do things to make life as difficult as possible for those in the minority. Davis-Sterling (and the many of subsequent court cases that dealt with Davis-Sterling) was basically set up to help prevent that as much as possible, unfortunately sometimes to the detriment of well-meaning HOA Boards that are dealing with a delinquent homeowner that understands these loopholes and uses them to willingly violate rules, or skirt out of paying fines, etc.
I'm not sure if this sentence was meant to be snarky or if this was a genuine comment... if it's the former, then heheh, I will agree that the sentiment of the sentence does have some merit.
But if it's the latter, I just wanted to try and clear something up -- speaking as an owner of a condo (in an HOA) and as the former president of our HOA.
Typically, owners of homes within an HOA are classified as owners in a "common interest development", where owners are all equal share holders of the development as a whole. Meaning, if there are 100 homeowners in a condo community, each homeowner owns an equal share (1%) of that overall community's property.
The owner is not "borrowing" anything from the HOA... especially since the HOA, itself, doesn't actually own anything at all.
The HOA is technically a corporation (yes, all HOAs are incorporated as a corporation, at least in the State of California) which has been chartered to manage and maintain the common interest development property, while maintaining things like the reserve fund, enforcement of the CC&Rs, architectural reviews, etc.
SO as a homeowner in the common interest, you actually own the HOA (and not the other way around).
Furthermore, homeowners within an HOA are granted limited, exclusive use of a certain part of the overall property... in most cases, that is the space inside condo or townhouse unit itself, and maybe a patio or yard, etc.
What's key is the limited part of "limited, exclusive use", as well as what is noted in the CC&Rs, itself, which describes the definition of what is "limited". Yes, these limitations can very well (and usually do) include provisions on what can or cannot be rented out, how long guests can stay within your home, etc. Typically, these provisions are not meant to make life difficult, but these provisions are in place to help maintain the overall property value of the all the homes in the community.
But the most important thing to note is that the CC&Rs are, in fact determined by all of the homeowners, and not by some arbitrary "HOA" or "powers that be", etc. CC&Rs are (or should be) regularly reviewed by the board members of the HOA, and changes are required to be approved by a certain majority (or supermajority) of homeowners by anonymous vote (again, at least this is how it is in the State of California, as dictated by the Davis-Sterling Act).
Bottom line: if you are a homeowner in a condo or townhouse community and feel like you have no freedom to do with the home that you rightfully own, just remember that you actually just own a portion of a much larger community/property, and thus, you are bound by some of the limitations / restrictions that the overall community has placed on each owner. But moreover, if you feel that some of those limitations / restrictions are unjust, unfair, or outdated, then work with the HOA Board (or better yet, actually be on the HOA board) and work with your neighbors to get those rules and regulations changed.
You said the HOA doesn't own anything, actually they do "literally own" a portion of the thing that people pay for when buying a house. The right to deny use of your property for subletting (like airbnb). And if you don't comply, the policemen hit you with sticks until you do.
You said the HOA doesn't own anything, they own you, the human unit living in the home via dues. They also own a guarantee of income to whatever human unit lives in that house, that is a higher quality item to own than having ownership of say a cat or car. and the fact that your home serves as security for whatever liabilities the HOA corp board chooses to incur, HOA-burdened property represents a liability rather than an asset. It's a secondary level of government that resembles a banana republic.
There is also a continuing misperception that HOA corporations are miniature democracies. They are not. They have none of the protections for individual rights. So what if 50% of the neighbors don't like something. Majority rule might be fine for setting pool hours for the HOA corp's pool, but majority rule is not a democracy and it is not appropriate for what happens between the bedroom walls of "your" or more specifically "their" home.
The disputes that develop over the propriety and interpretation of restrictions is another cesspool. If there were no HOA corp, the disputes would tend to simply be differences of opinion. Natural barriers to litigation include the cost of litigation and the uncertainty of the outcome. However, the board members of an HOA corp bear no personal responsibility for financing litigation and are driven as much to harm fellow residents as they are to win. If they can cost a homeowner $20,000 and up, then their egos are satiated even if their HOA corp loses. The management companies profit from accusations of violations. The HOA attorney is likewise more concerned about provoking and maintaining the dispute for profit.
Which is why HOA's lower property values significantly by lowering the pool of available buyers.
Before Airbnb, when craigslist was the go to for short term rentals, they were not only cheaper but didn't come along with the stigma of ruining the neighborhood or being treated like a customer instead of a guest. There was much more of a mutual respect and even a feeling of gratitude on both sides. Now with Airbnb the whole things wreaks of an (illegal) business transaction with a flimsy guarantee, neighbors who want to catch you, no such gratitude to speak of and the costs have doubled.
The whole thing is obnoxious.
1) credit check & renter history are standard
* The medallion system gives owners something significant to lose it they become scofflaws, and while we all have horror stories about cab drivers, anyone who's traveled to Asia (or, for that matter, Italy) knows that we have relatively well-behaved drivers, even in the cohorts selected for worst incentives.
* The taxi companies are required to comply with rules that make taxis part of the fabric of transportation for the whole city (for instance, they're usually required to serve every destination within the city). Uber does not need to comply with these rules, and thus threatens not just cab companies but the transportation system as a whole.
People's homes are a pretty big issue in when threatened by neighbors that can destroy everything you own. People get the possibility of a car accident even if it can be much, much worse.
I would imagine that each landlord and each homeowner's association could come to their own agreements on what is and is not acceptable without the need for laws on the books.
I get the feeling it is more the origin of the law as a business regulation that drives the criminal part. I too wish more things were handled as basic contract law issues.
Black and Jewish folks used to have a hell of a time getting a hotel room in the US at various points in history. That became illegal with the 1960s civil rights laws, but recent media coverage suggests discrimination is rampant on Airbnb.
It also used to be nearly impossible to find wheelchair-accessible hotels.
I have no idea what the solution is here, but there are good things about regulation of these kinds of businesses.
We have the same problem here in Austin, except it is Taxis being protected against private drivers like Uber and Lyft. They claim this is to protect citizens from unlicensed drivers.
The articles I read on these subjects always feel schizophrenic
This struck me as not particularly sustainable. It also struck me as morally questionable. It was only a matter of time before the chickens eventually came home to roost...
At the end of the day, that tenant is probably paying homeowner's due proportional to the square footage of their unit. e.g. someone with 2 rooms is likely paying twice as much in dues as someone with 1 room.
I know that when I rented the penthouse unit in an apartment building with my father, we were paying almost 2x as much in building dues as the other units in the building, since we has 2x the space. Our roommates used the same facilities we did.
In some cases the distinction may be subtle; in this case, not really.
Airbnb is intentionally setting up a situation where people are breaking the law and this should not be tolerated. They could easily have a questionnaire that vets facilities for legal Airbnb use as part of the signup process for cities such as NYC and SF. Moreover, they should have Airbnb employees verify that the apartments listed on the Airbnb site are following laws.
The real issue is that a number of reputable firms are funding Airbnb and it is these firms people should pressure. They are in fact, funding a firm which knowingly facilitates illegal activities in NYC and SF.
According to Crunchbase these firms include: Y Combinator, Sequoia Capital, Greylock Partners, SV Angel, Andreessen Horowitz, Jeff Bezos, Ashton Kushner, and others. Some of these firms such as Sequoia, Greylock, and Andreessen Horowitz get funds from other organizations or individuals and these funders of Sequoia, Greylock, and Andreessen Horowitz should withdraw their funds if their funds are knowingly used to finance illegal activities or a site that facilitates illegal activities.
These firms are knowing funding a firm which they know is helping people to break the law and should be held accountable for funding firms which break the law.
These firms should hire as managers of Airbnb and other firms which they fund who have zero tolerance for breaking the law or trying to violate the spirit of the law.
I do applaud Airbnb's attempts to lower the cost of transient stays in NYC and SF. But this should be done through a legal mechanism such as building low-cost hotels in NYC and SF (with partners perhaps) and then listing these low-cost hotels on their site.
For example, I used AirBnB when doing an internship. Since it was >30 days, it was legal. I liked that I was able to read reviews, verify identities, and in a worst case scenario contact my credit card company's fraud department and get my money back.
There's a huge demand for medium term sublets in SF. People doing internships, people who need a place to get some breathing room for a couple months while they hunt for a more permanent space, that sort of thing.
Is it worth billions? Probably not. But I'd say it plays as useful a role as say, Craigslist.
Companies often ignore laws when it is expected to be profitable. It's a simple matter of risk management. And it is a straightforward consequence of our economic and legal system.
See this 2012 article "Should Companies Obey the Law If Breaking It Is More Profitable?" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-radcliffe/should-companie...
After a investors lose 100%, they will stop funding companies that do illegal stuff.
Sure, some regulations seem designed primarily to protect existing interests, but more often, there are very good reasons for the regulation.
For instance, I believe hotels must maintain a record of visitors car license plates. And they are often inspected by health departments.
I'm all for innovation, but I don't think we can throw out an entire regulatory framework that took decades to develop. There is just too much that can go wrong.
As for 10 or 20 billion dollar valuation for Airbnb? Reality says "Ridiculous!".
Does it have a high technical/expense barrier to entry?
I'm sorry, the valuation at those levels just seems way way out of proportion. Never mind the underlying legal problems.
There is no way this crazy idea could ever actually work...
"get while the gettin's good" sort of thing.
I believe Airbnb definitely has a headstart in the placesharing space, and preventing rentals in SFBA, NY, etc wouldn't cause a significant dent in their valuation (two cents).
Their model works so long as the local jurisdiction supports it.
Sure, they have a head start, but the various problems haven't been fleshed out nor resolved. And, there is going to be a very active resistance from many sectors (for good reason).
I might be wrong, and not to rain on parades and such, but I just don't see that valuation level reflecting reality at all.
I don't think I've ever seen a hotel night, outside of a hostel, for $12.
(And I'm not trying to say it is a bad business at all — non-customer-acqusition costs probably go down by a larger % than revenue.)
Effectively, their profit is $10 per stay and their expenses border on $0.
The valuation is a bet on a YouTube exit. Most of YouTube was massive copyright violations (still is) and was a massive bandwidth cost sink (suspect it still is), but since Google bought them out that doesn't matter anymore. In fact, YouTube is a gigantic brake on innovation in the video side of the web precisely because they choke off any useful profitable business models.
Similarly, if AirBnB can get somebody big to buy them out before the lawsuits overrun them, cha-ching, go the owners and initial investors.
I think the important thing is the agreement between tenant and landlord (or condo association, etc). From my perspective, if those agreements are specific about no subletting then I don't see how it even matters if there is a city-wide ban? There isn't a city-wide ban of smoking in residential buildings in Atlanta but I am not allowed to smoke in mine. That seems to be analogous.
I believe the fault lies with both AirBnB and the renter. I see people mostly harping on AirBnB and it does seem they could do more to make the renter think about the legality of the situation or check a box stating that they have the legal right to do so. But as a long time renter, I've always been well aware that in every rental agreement I've signed, it is a violation to sublet at least with out consent from my landlord.
The idea that there is some connection between morality and abiding by all laws is silly. There are so many ridiculous laws on the books, it is laughable. Over here in Atlanta, it is illegal to engage in oral sex. I don't believe I'm am a bad person for breaking that law as often as humanly possible. Again, I think that violating a piece of state or city legislation of which I had nothing to do with enacting is far different from me violating an agreement which I myself signed.
People visit from out of town and use town resources, so we need to tax them without taxing the locals...let's create a hotel tax. The locals don't pay it, so no one cares.
How do we track the hotels to make sure we get our tax money? We'll need a licensing process. Again no one cares.
Hotels form a lobby and say, hey, we're paying these taxes and getting these licenses, maybe you should create a few laws to protect us and limit the licenses so we stay in business. Some people care.
Finally, a neighbor sees my house and my frequent guests (because I have a lot of friends that visit) and reports me to the Gestapo and says I might be renting my place out on AirBnb. Without any due process I get fined for violating a law meant to protect an industry that pays taxes to pay for the visitors that use city services that I actually live in and pay taxes. Now I really care, but it's too late.
Violating your lease is wrong, but so is violating due process. I also believe I have the right as a property owner to rent out my property as long as its purpose doesn't change.
I am especially unsympathetic to the argument that the neighbours have a "right" not to live "next to a hotel". There's nothing inherently hostile about a hotel as an application of an apartment, versus any other less controversial applications of an apartment that result in occasional comings and goings of strangers, such as parties and social gatherings. If the hotel causes them specific problems, they have a right to redress those specific grievances. That's about it.
My view of this is strongly connected to the idea that property rights to real estate should incorporate the freedom to use the property as you'd like, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. I don't find much plausibility in the idea that renting it out in and of itself harms anyone. Many things that Airbnb renters can do can cause annoyance or harm. So can a drunk friend getting rowdy at my dinner party. So what? I can't have guests? Oh, I can? What about guests that stay a few days? Yeah? Why not paying guests then?
I disagree. While I understand that renting out bedrooms on airbnb is a far more profitable use of a single family house than providing a place for your kids to sleep, I purchased a house in an area zoned for single family use. When I purchased, I traded my right to turn my house into a hotel in exchange for a legally enforced expectation that the neighbors I share a wall with won't do this either.
That's one kind of unfair advantage that startups have over bigger organisations where they can spread and grow quickly even if a bit illegal (or on the grey line).
I'm just speculating here but I'm wondering if it couldn't be a good indicator of success for upcoming startups.. I.e. something a tiny big illegal gaining some adoptions. But then, it's fair to ask, how far are founders willing to go in the "illegal" side for the success of their startup?
Boulder is a tough market by design, but anything with this sort of impact is going to be closely scrutinized and evaluated for long term effects on the community.
Clearly it's a prelude to a crack down, but the rules are clear, reasonable and communicated well up front.
Even prior to AirBnB it was really common to see offers on Craigslist or simply through traditional networks of friends and acquaintances, "Sublet my apartment while I'm traveling for six weeks," or "SFO-NYC apartment swap."
Of course, if you are a renter your rental agreement would need to allow for subletting or you would permission...
It's just like no one was going to come after you in the eighties because you made a mixtape but Napster was another story.
Except for properly licensed hotels, short-term rentals are illegal in SF.
Even if they kept paying rent, they might be an unpleasant person. If they also stop paying rent it could be even worse.
So why doesn't AirBnB simply disallow listings from SF? Worried that will impact their valuation?
If they want to regulate it, make AirBnB carry massive insurance - divide that cost of insurance across the thousands-of-user-hours per nightly rental.
"Using an apartment for short-term rentals is a crime in San Francisco," said Edward Singer, an attorney with Zacks & Freedman who filed the notice against Katz.
Considering private attorneys don't prosecute crimes, this sounds like a landlord that wanted to raise the rent and found a good excuse to evict the current tenant.