Hacker News Reader

Comment by iandanforth | Hacker News Reader

This strikes me as very boring, non-Apple style thinking. I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone. But it is a bigger number and thus easy to market. And things that are easy to market are the playground of boring companies.

Apple, on the other hand, should look at these numbers and say "people obviously want something new." Giant phones are being heavily marketed as the new thing, so people are buying them. Not because it feels good to try to shove a small book into a front pocket, or that they love having to use both hands to type out text messages.

A boring business would follow the heard because they don't know how to distinguish customer needs from customer inertia. Apple, traditionally, is very good at knowing when something is a trend, and when something speaks to a deeper human need.

I sincerely hope that Apple has not become a boring company.

View on HN

"I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone."

You don't have to. But I am someone who does. There are many, many people like me who love their phones like the Galaxy Note who feel the same way. If I made a list of the top 5 reasons I really like my phone, 1 - 3 would be screen size.

I have been surprised at how many people have gone from, "let me see that phone, it is ridiculous that you carry the around" to "wow, I never realized how hard my screen is to use compared to this." I know three people who have gotten a larger screen phone because of me in the past 9 months and I don't evangelize at all. They just see my phone and want to try it.

I almost didn't get my Note 2 because I was afraid of carrying around a "small book". To honest it is less obtrusive in my pocket than my Motorola Droid 3 was, that thing sat in my pocket like a thick brick. The single time it can be an issue is getting it in and out of my pocket while sitting and wearing jeans.

I love my Note 2. It is close to perfect in the size category. As part of my job I sometime test on a 4" iPod Touch, and it feels to very tiny. I can't remember how I even used my old iPhone 3G. Typing on the 4" was painful; the hit target was so small.

I think this is one of the reasons that Samsung has taken such a large share of the market. They offer devices in a variety of sizes, for which they've been criticized, but allows for a perfect size for everyone. I know I could never go back to a smaller screen size.

Yeah I do some testing on the 4S and it feels tiny now compared the my 5S. As for the typing though, software plays a big part in this too. I absolutely hate the default keyboard on my HTC One and I have no problems with my 5S and even the smaller 4S.

Should point out the most popular devices, Samsung's Galaxy S3 & S4, are 4.7" & 5" phones. The Galaxy Note series is 5.3", 5.5", and 5.7" respectively.

I will likely end up upgrading my iphone 4 to a 5 instead of a 6 if the rumoured size increase happens. The only reason I still use an iphone is the smaller screen size. I would bet that Steve Jobs had the nous to make sure that the iphone comfortably fits in the front pocket of a pair of jeans.

I, however, fail to see why Apple wouldn't offer iPhone in its "standard" size, as well as a "big" size - the 5" model.

The rumor sites have them bringing out two models - one a bit bigger and one much bigger. If anyone brings out an android nano I'll defect immediately (having been on iphone since day 1).

There are definitely smaller ones out there. Htc one mini. Galaxy s4 mini. ect.ect. 4.3 inch screens for both of those ones.

Both bigger than an iphone 5 in all dimensions.

Really looking for something with a hi-res screen, apple-speed touch latency, maximum but preferably smaller footprint than an iphone 4, and at least as thin as an iphone 5. This should be doable in 2014 and I think would be distinct enough without being ridiculously niche to have a reasonable market segment.

You aren't likely to get apple-speed touch latency outside of apple. They have worked much harder on this than everyone else and do a much better job of it. Sadly for you, I don't see them releasing something that small again. The 4S is still a decent phone, but you might have to settle for the 5 sized phones. Unlikely they ever release something smaller at this point.

The Sony Z1f is a pretty great 4.3" phone. Which, sadly, is 'nano' these days.

And still larger and thicker than an iphone 5 (which is already a bit too big)

The Droid Razr M is about the same size, at 4.82 x 2.40 x .33 inches[1]. It's only .09 inches wider, and .03 inches deeper than The 5s, and it is actually .05 inches shorter[2]. I'm not sure if you'd still find that too big though.

1: http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_droid_razr_m-4973.php 2: https://www.apple.com/iphone-5s/specs/

Sadly the market doesn't love small phones any more - Sony killed their Xperia Mini and Mini Pro range due to lack of demand, which was a shame.

Either you wear your jeans ridiculously tight or you've never tried to put one of the Galaxy Notes in your pocket.

No one believes (including me before I got my phone) that my Note 2 is less obtrusive in my pocket than my Moto Droid 3 was.

I was ready to buy a nexus 5 which is much smaller until I tried my friend's one - it feels like I tried to stuff a shoe in there by comparison. Having bought on spec, they agree that it is disappointingly huge and wish they went for an iphone.

I can fit a nexus 7 in a few pairs of my work pants. Stop wearing skinny jeans.

> Stop wearing skinny jeans.

They are standard in Europe and much of the US at least. My apparently heretical pov is that the tech should be user centred, not vice versa

ymmv but hardly going to start wearing fugly cargo pants for a phone - it's meant to be a convenience, not an inconvenience

At some point, the pants are what's inconvenient.

The current iPhone screen is too small. I'm glad to see Apple is starting to figure that out.

the old iPhone screens are too small. current isn't bad at all. perhaps a bit smaller than ideal, but not really "too small" (at least it isn't too small for tens of millions of people)

So you haven't tried it. Good deal. I wear regular fit pants and have absolutely no problem putting the phone in my pocket with plenty of room to wear.

One of the reasons I didn't want any smart phone was the size (I had a small flip phone from Virgin Mobile); but now I'm used to my iPhone in a Book Book.

On the other hand, my wife often has no pockets, and never puts her phone in one. Instead it goes in a purse. For her, and I expect many women, the only thing that matters if it is comfortable to hold and use not how it gets stored between use.

Or the poster is female. People seem to forget that women's bottoms tend to have really tiny pockets (at least in the USA).

There is definitely a sweetspot. I understand 4 inches is very small for any mildly serious task, it can be done but it's painful. But IMO 5 or 6 inches don't feel so liberating. It's better, but not that much, and at the end of the day I really want an iPad to do any task that will last more than 5 min.

For people who usually have a carry bag, an iPad is not so big or clunky. Having a 4 inch phone to pocket is then good enough.

"I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone. But it is a bigger number and thus easy to market."

It's all good that your personal preference is for smaller sized phones. But it's really false to say that bigger screens are just about marketing. Having gone up from a 3.7 to a 4 inch to 4.7 inch device, each of them has been a progressively better experience because of screen real estate. My next phone might be 6 inches, so far bigger is better to me.

If Apple really does pick their phone size based on user experience alone, I think they're doing it wrong. However, I think they got stuck on dimensions set in 2007 and an operating system that isn't flexible enough. (FYI all my devices except my phone are made by Apple.)

You're right about the operating system not being flexible enough, however it is now.

Is it? When Apple introduced other screen sizes in the form of tablets, they required completely new layouts. Will they do that again for larger phones?

The 3.5/4 inch size is very much ingrained in the design of iPhone apps. For example: many apps require reaching into the top left corner for navigation - this has been a HIG recommendation since 2007. Reaching to the top left of a device hard to do on 4+ inch devices. Android and Windows Phone have mostly avoided this, meaning you can operate your phone without reaching into the top left corner. This considerably increases the things you can do on large Android/Windows phones with one hand.

The dev tools have included variable sizing help for several years now. Anything being made now should be using these features to deal with different sized phones, even if just the 4 size and 5 size. Certainly it will make some people's lives difficult it they increase the width of the next phone, but developing new apps now it is easy to handle.

The bigger problem is all of the legacy apps that were designed with pixel perfect backgrounds that weren't meant to be stretched to fill different sized phones. Those have to be redesigned (and probably should have already been for iOS 7) to work for bigger phones.

This. Now that there has been time for apps to be updated for iOS7 and the iPhone 5 size, the transition to variable sizes will be a much lower impact.

Also, it is clear that different sizes of phone will still use the 'iPhone' UI idiom, rather than the 'iPad' idiom.

Basically if you are paying attention to Cocoa, you'll know that they're ready.

(Speaking as someone who has a pixel perfect app in the store, popular for it's design, that is very painful to make flexible)

yeah i've got a few apps like that as well. I've updated some, and kept some that are more popular. Not sure what I'll do with a bigger phone. we'll see how they look I guess. Not sure if the work is better spent updating old apps or making new ones.

> However, I think they got stuck on dimensions set in 2007 and an operating system that isn't flexible enough. (FYI all my devices except my phone are made by Apple.)

Not really the operating system, so much as the APIs provided to developers, which previously required complex layouts to be hand-coded.

However, constraint-based layout was introduced 3 years ago and is being aggressively marketed as 'the future', although it has required some learning time for developers (and wastage of old devices) to become mainstream.

It is likely that the reason for introducing this several years ago was to ease the future introduction of varying screen sizes. I'd view the delay as a consequence of thinking about the problem in its entirety instead of rushing to play the numbers game.

" I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone."

I would respectfully disagree with that as someone who moved from a 4.3" Xperia to a 4.7" Nexus 4 and now a 5" Nexus 5. The extra real estate is a godsend for everything I use my phone for. IMHO, 4.7-5" makes the most sense (perhaps 5.2" as well). At the very least, I think apple should give people a choice of 4" and 4.5"-4.7".

Of course, doing that will introduce a problem since most development on iOS is very focused on optimizing for a single screen experience.

Absolutely agreed. Gf considered going back to iphone after early annoyance with GS3, now she can't imagine it after she got used to her screen size.

In my case, I want a larger screen, but I don't want a huge device that doesn't fit in my pocket, either. If they were to push the usable screen out to the edge of the device, I could have both.

I was surprised at how unobtrusive my Note 2 is in my pocket. When I got it, I made sure I knew the return policy and had a backup phone picked out in case it was a pain. Honestly, it is less noticeable than my Motorola Droid 3 was. That phone was think and felt heavier. I generally keep my phone in my left front pocket. When driving, I almost never didn't know my phone was in my pocket. With the Note, I sometimes have to glance down or pat the pocket real quick to make sure I picked up my phone.

Take a look at the Moto X vs. an iPhone 5S:

http://www.phonearena.com/phones/size#/phones/size/Apple-iPh...

I don't think that's really a huge footprint difference (1/4" in each direction), but the iPhone 5S has a 4" screen and the Moto X has a 4.7" one.

Everyone's pockets are different. I know Galaxy Note (5.5" screen) owners who comfortably keep their phone in their front pocket. I know iPhone (4,4S) owners who can't fit their phone in anything but their back pocket or purse. I personally find any phone uncomfortable in a jean pocket, regardless of size.

Seconded. When I was using my Note 2 I found myself not using my laptop as often. (After dropping my Note 2) I am back to using a Moto G nowadays and despite it being an amazing phone for $200 - I find I am going back to using my laptop more, entirely due to screen size.

Apple has to live in the real world. It's actually reassuring to me that they are able to consider these kinds of facts. It's certainly the job of Schiller and the marketing team to understand what the market is doing.

I agree with you that they need to design something great to serve the demand and not just follow others.

However, as an iPhone user, who loves the portability and one-handedness of the small form factor, I am using my phone for 'real work' all the time now, and would really like a larger screen for things like quip and mindnode. I think the demand for different tradeoffs is real.

I've had only iPhones until this year, my only tablet is an iPad, I work on a Macbook Pro 17''. Last month, I got a Nexus 5, because the screen (4.95'', 1920x1080 pixels) is just so much better. I can read ebooks very comfortably on it, it totally replaces a Kindle for me. There are apps like Calibre Companion which I don't have on iOS, and there are no apps on iOS which I miss on Android (except my own :-)). Before I got the Nexus 5, I thought the iExperience is still too good on mobile to be matched. Now I think Apple should be very very VERY scared.

This strikes me as very boring, non-Apple style thinking.

That's because this is Apple's thinking. Not Apple's external messaging that carefully crafts a picture of how they "think."

I sincerely hope that Apple has not become a boring company.

Boring is just a matter of perception, I grew up exposed to Apple's branding and always thought they were boring. They're very much like a career-politician running as a "Washington outsider" but with more success selling it. Cultivating a family-friendly counter culture image was a smart response to the fact their primary competitor was the juggernaut of the day.

If they become "boring", it'll be because their customers perception of them as an underdog to Microsoft has finally worn off, and now they're recognized as top dog to Android. Not in market share but as a luxury brand. Now that I actually think about it, their messaging has been turning towards a "car manufacturer quite pleased with themselves" vibe...

Presumably analysts and market researchers have done their work and due diligence and compressed their findings into this high-level presentation.

Only for you to dismiss it in infamous HN style, with a complete nonsensical "explanation" and appeal to some evasive magical quality. Jesus.

Every time I have purchased a smartphone in the last 5 years I have got one with a larger screen than the previous I owned. It is fantastic. Up to a certain limit (probably another quarter- to half-inch bigger than my Nexus), bigger is definitely better for me. And my wife. And basically everybody we know. That said, whether it's boring or not, Apple has a problem.

Apple has (almost) always been a marketing company. They appeal to and market a certain kind of culture, which they bundle with hardware and charge a kind of fee for "joining the club" in the form of a brand-based premium over similarly functional competitor devices' retail. That's just how they make their money. Show me an Apple product and I can almost guarantee there is an alternative that performs almost identically in every way, but is 50-95% of the cost of the Apple product.

Their "sexy" is all about marketing; not substance (although the latter is necessary to some minimum level of quality). I don't know if "boring" is the right term to use, but it's not unusual; companies try to differentiate their products from their competitors' with appearance and marketing all the time. What is unusual--as demonstrated by their enormous cash holdings--is how successful they have been at it. But the genius driving that success has passed away. They need to: a) find another Jobs-like genius; b) adapt to the market.

I'm getting older and find I often need to take off my glasses (I'm short-sighted) to read my iPhone 5's screen. I would cheerfully pay $100 extra for an iPhone with a bigger screen.

My guess is Apple plans to deliver larger-screened iPhones, but they want to do it the right way, i.e. without causing fragmentation. My guess is simply scaling up the UI display without increasing resolution violates their sensibilities (not "retina" any more) so it's a question of getting ducks in a row (true scalable UI elements). Note that the iOS7 switch away from skeumorphism and bitmapped UI components does a lot to pave the path.

The idea that a small phone is just better for everyone is -- I think -- silly. Apple just won't release a half-assed product.

Larger screen !== larger text, necessarily.

Especially with all the websites locking zoom! Please quit doing that.

Apple should give Mobile Safari an advanced option to always let people zoom. This way, everyone who locks zoom on websites for the sake of clueless clumsy users are still getting what they want, and people who really need zooming for legibility can get what they want too.

Tip: if you increase the text size in settings, the text will be larger when using reader mode in Safari.

I'd really rather just zoom. There's no real mode switch for me any more. To me, zoom is just a UI option that's a part of the mobile browser experience. Also, sometimes reader mode doesn't work, since it depends on one of a few technical tricks. Zooming is just basic geometry. If Apple wanted to, it could always be active, and it would always work.

I said it was just a tip, not the ideal fix. For someone it could be an acceptable solution.

You know what I'd buy in a heartbeat... an app that coordinates with other users of the same app to launch a DDoS attack against websites that disable pinch-to-zoom, or that railroad you over to a stupid mobile site.

Kickstarter, anyone?

And also please quit making the fixed headers and footers. It degrades the experience for everybody who tries to actually read something.

You think that people want a device with nearly 50% more screen area because it's a "bigger number"? That's delusional.

It's 2013, most folks who are buying smartphones are not buying their first smartphone ever, they know what they want, many of them are fairly savvy at this point, and people want larger phones. I have a lot of friends who are extremely technically savvy and are not easily subject to marketing influence, they buy phones based on lots of research and recommendations from friends. Almost universally they are buying 4.7" screen phones, because there are many exemplary models in that form factor such as the HTC One or the Moto X which are excellent phones.

I agree 100%. Apple's biggest problem is they've ceased innovating. Was a flimsy fingerprint reader really supposed to be the killer app of the iPhone 5s? Jesus.

Here's a list of things that would blow everyone else away:

1) NFC realized from the ground up. It absolutely will be a must have in the very near future, and I won't be stuck with a phone that doesn't have it.

2) An enormous innovation in battery tech. I want you to figure out a way to make my battery last 2-4 days on a charge.

3) Some sort of major design innovation. Edge-to-edge screen? That would look incredible; so novel, it'd be impossible to ignore.

4) A software-level overhaul of what it means to have a device on you that is capable of being constantly connected to the internet. It can be an ecosystem (we already know apple is good at building those), or something similar, but the future is one where you don't have to check your phone for anything. It already knows.

That's all I can think of for the moment, but it's clear they need to prove something, and I think they're simply coming up short in that regard.

1) iBeacons

2) Yes, agreed, and I think they're working on this.

3) Edge to edge causes accidental taps for many users. They may or may not go this way.

4) Not sure what you mean here beyond things like push notifications. I would like more apps to advance-load data and predict my behavior, but I think a lot of this is already possible with background tasking. Not sure why this would have to occur at the OS level.

iBeacons != NFC

Edge to edge display does not have to mean edge-to-edge touch sensing. You can be smart about what to sense where and when. (I.e. when your screen can detect more than two separate points of contact, you can dynamically ignore those at the edge when appropriate.)

Lots of apps are starting to load data proactively in the background. That's why iOS settings has the "Background App Refresh" screen (under "General").

> I agree 100%. Apple's biggest problem is they've ceased innovating. Was a flimsy fingerprint reader really supposed to be the killer app of the iPhone 5s? Jesus.

No, the problem is they are innovating around what will be in the new commercial. The truth is that smartphones are largely "done". Usually this is when Apple moves on to the next thing but unlike in the past there is no obvious new next thing to move into. Because of the success of the iPhone and to a lesser degree the iPad the expectation among shareholders is that the next thing has to be high-margin like those things are/were.

Have you tried the fingerprint scanner? Why do you say it is 'flimsy'?

The pros of a larger screen vastly outdo the cons. I can't even imagine the tiny screens I used to deal with, and my next phone, I'm definitely looking for something even larger.

It's madness that Apple doesn't offer two different phone sizes, the only rational I can come up with is that they blew their load convincing people that their size and form factor was the best best best.

It could be some psychological mumbo-jumbo about blowing their load, or it could be that it is actually taking work to prepare the UI toolkit and manufacturing processes needed to make multiple sizes of iPhone.

> And things that are easy to market are the playground of boring companies.

Apple is already playing in that field with the Retina display.

> I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone.

I'm a pretty tall and well-built man with rather large fingers; even a slightly larger on-screen keyboard is a huge improvement for me.

I agree. I spread my hand out and my thumb and pinky touch the edges of the long side of an 8x11 sheet of paper. I'd rather use an iPhone as a projectile than a productivity device.

Apple is periodically a boring company. It just made better macs for a decade, and slid into irrelevance. Then they got (back) a CEO that made their products relevant again. Then he died. So I'm predicting history will repeat itself.

Yeah - because they've forgotten about that.

Who's this 'they'? Corporations are automatons without insightful leadership.

Tim Cook, Jony Ive, Schiller, etc.

That's not really a fair characterization. 1990s Apple did indeed only iterate its Macs until Jobs returned, but they absolutely didn't stop trying to innovate – they just didn't do it with focus. I mean, Apple invented the PDA without its co-founder at the helm, and repeatedly tried to put a revolutionary operating system on the Mac, but failed due to institutional bloat and uncertain leadership.

Psion might respectfully disagree re: invention of PDA.

It is true that Apple invented the term.

I actually think it's very inline with their thinking. Apple has always (since Jobs came back anyway) focused on being smart/choosy about their product lineup, but IMO they chase good design, not what's new. If the two happen to coincide with each other, great, but if not, design over something out of this world new. They were in the right place at the right time for the original iPhone, but I think that was an anomaly due to lazy competition. I think Nest had/has similar culture, and they were kind of a spin off from Apple anyway (designer of the iPod or something like that?). Thermometers are not new, but they managed to clean it up a bit (I'd like to see the same happen to receivers, why is the UI so terrible for them still).

I suspect their design values will preclude them from ever making a phablet, and that there is a line in the sand beyond which a device is too large, and at that point they will try to figure out an alternative solution rather than boosting physical phone size, but I don't think the current 5/5s screen size is at that line yet.

> I don't think the experience of a 5 inch phone is better than a 4 inch phone.

Would you still say this when Apple launches a bigger phone? (Rumor has it that their next phone is going to be considerably bigger)

Have you actually tried using a 5 inch phone? I think you may change your mind if you haven't. Trying to use someone's iPhone X after using my Nexus 5 is quite frankly laughable to say the least.

I have the iPhone as a phone. I make calls with it, keep it in my pocket, and other uses are secondary (albeit common). Insofar as it's uncomfortably small for some uses, that's why an iPad is usually in arm's reach. Sure, 5" is more usable for many applications than 4", but ~10" is much more so. Make the phone more than 4" and I'm apt to just not carry it, as it won't reasonably fit in my pocket and looks/feels like a wall held to my ear.

iPad + iPhone Nano = winning combination. If Apple makes a 6" iPhone, I'd sure hope they at least retain the 4" version, if not shrink & optimize for a much smaller version. I need a phone that excels at being a phone and integrates well into the iOS ecosystem; got my tablet for applications needing a more complex/larger interface.

>> I have the iPhone as a phone.

Yes, but this is your use case.

While there are a lot of people who share your use case, there are probably a lot more people who don't.

Which is why the product diversity on the market right now is good. There's a decent chance that you'll find a phone that will work for your particular use case.

What concerns me (and I'm sure many others who don't like the idea of a larger iPhone) is that the iPhone 5s is currently the only flagship phone under 4.5". Sure, you can get smaller budget smartphones, but if you want a small high-end phone, it's Apple or nothing.

If the rumors are true and Apple decides to make the iPhone 6 4.7" and 5.5", what do I get next time I'm ready for an upgrade? I think it's silly for Apple to leave money on the table by only selling the current form factor when there's obviously a lot of demand for a larger iPhone, but it's equally silly to ignore the market for smaller phones like every other smartphone manufacturer is.

I feel the same way. If I were designing my own iPhone, it'd be as light and thin as the current-gen iPod touch, but with the height (and so screen size) of the iPhone 4 series.

How does one use a 5-inch phone one-handed? My thumbs aren't large enough to hit the extremes of a 5-inch screen. (fully-grown American of European descent with a height exactly at the center of the bell curve)

Swype style keyboards work wonders. Double tap + drag to zoom.

I have smallish hands and it's just not that big a deal to be honest. My last phone was iphone sized and I wouldn't go back to that size for just about anything.

I can barely use my Moto X one-handed (e.g. standing on a bus). I must be one of the only people on the planet who a) does this and/or b) does not have monstrously large hands. :P

I hear this alot, and I wonder: is that because I frequent developer forums, where the users are mostly male? I'm a guy, but have really tiny hands (smaller than my wife's, and most every girl I ever dated) I have an S3 (and S5 on order), and have had most iPhone models. The larger phones really are uncomfortable for me, but I suppose the same is true if you reverse it (smaller phones are uncomfortable for larger hands ... I heard the reason why Shaq sucked at the free throw line was because to him, shooting a basketball was like a normal person trying to shoot an orange)

You're not alone, I have noticed as soon as you get out of most tech circles and look at mostly women only things, that is nurses/etc... they tend (tend is key here not always) to prefer iphones.

Funny part is they seem to hate the 5/5s cause its too tall and still prefer the 4s. I know a girl that downgraded back to her 4s because the extra height on the 5 was too much.

With my girl hands I pretty much agree though, I do miss the smaller height of the 4s over my 5. I think when people talk about what phones they prefer they should also bust out their glove size. Mine is a 7, and any phone > 4"ish starts to really frustrate me when I try to text one handed.

While we're generalizing I seem to know many women who will then outfit their Iphone 4(s)/5(s) with big bulky Otterboxes or other huge cases that negate the natural size advantage of the iPhone.

Yep, prefer the iphones smaller width to be honest. Not everyone has huge hands.

While I disagree that screen size is all about marketing, I switched from a Galaxy Nexus (4.65") to the iPhone 5s and have found that the smaller screen hasn't bothered me at all. This was my biggest concern in switching and I am actually a little surprised that it hasn't bothered me. Generally, I always want bigger and bigger screens, I'm the guy that wants 3 27" monitors to work on, a 70" TV, etc., etc.

Tangential note: I recently switched from the Nexus 7 (2012) to the LG G-pad and the 1.3" bump in screen real estate has made a huge difference. I hardly ever used the N7, but I use the G-pad every day.

When someone makes a phone that separates the screen, input and processing into three physically different pieces (different in shape, volume, mass) that are connected by a micro local network I will buy it in a heartbeat.

All modern smartphones are far far far too big.

Granted the "iPhone Shuffle" is usually considered a joke, it would fit what you & I want: scrap or aggressively minimize the screen, focus on I/O via earpiece, cram "amazing talk time" motion-charging battery & radio into clip-on unit, and seamlessly integrate with the iOS ecosystem a la usually-nearby tablet.

The dumbphone has its place, and nobody is addressing it right.

Sony is quite close to that idea with Smart Bluetooth® Handset SBH52: http://youtu.be/aSp8yHUDhZc

If only they would give it a bit of personality (a proper name, for starters) - could be a hit.

Looks promising ... 'cept that what it is remains unclear. Seems sort of a robust wireless headset extending the phone which remains in your pocket...but it's a lot smarter than just a headset...but it's...uh...a lot of cost/effort to save just pulling out the phone. Getting there, got a ways to go. Put the actual cellular radio in there and you've got something.

There are options between "huge phablet" and the current iPhone size. I've play with the HTC One for development, and while I like my iPhone 5S better, the size is nice. I wouldn't even consider getting a Note, but going from 4 to 4.3,4.7,and maybe even 5 could be nice.

Certainly there is a segment of the market that likes bigger phones, and I think Apple could capture a lot of that interest with something in the 4.7 range that doesn't sacrifice much of the usability that comes with a smaller phone. I also don't think it's unreasonable to offer 2 sizes, 1 for people with bigger hands. Not convinced they will do that though.

In my non-scientific observations, some women seem to really like giant phones. They typically keep the phone in a purse, so the bigger it is, the easier it is to access. They also tend to use the phone in a two handed operation.

My wife avoids using computers after work. Her phone is in essence, her surrogate for an iPad (which she used to love until she got her 4S), laptop and camera. For her, a 5" screen is a plus given her use case.

A few years ago, I also thought the 5" screens were silly, but that was before I had to start wearing reading glasses. I just upgraded my iPhone to an Android phone with a larger screen, and it's so much easier on my aging eyes.

The main use case for the bigger screen, that I've seen, is people watching video content. This is a very common use of the smartphone in places like Singapore. I was surprised how many people had smartphones and used them despite only having 3G service -- it's because they preload with video to watch on transit. I assume much of Asia is the same way.

iphones feel like a child's toy in my hand. Thats pretty boring to me.

Child's toys are usually large and chunky. I recommend not buying an android phone.

my nexus4 feels neither large or chunky however the iphone5 feels like im holding a phone for someone who works at the chocolate factory.

Most people have hands smaller than the average man, particularly the average American man.

and I'm probably one of those people. The problem is that most people own androids and want screens larger than the iphone5.

I don't think that's true. Most android phones are not large screened.

so apple is wrong when they say the strongest demand is coming from larger screens?

They don't say that. They say that the strongest growth is coming from larger screens.

On slide #3 they do.

Their exact words are "Strongest DEMAND coming from less expensive and larger screen smartphones.

Fair point, however this indicates nothing about most Android phones sold having larger screens. Most of them are simply less expensive.

you really should look a the slides created by apple

I have looked at the slides. Look at the last one. By far the most growth is coming from < $300 phones, which are distinct from the >$300, >4" phones, where there is also strong growth.

Therefore most Android phones sold to meet this demand are < $300, and not >4"

As I said, most Android phones are not large screened.

the < $300 is distinct from > $300 & > 4".

My Nexus 4 for example retailed for < $300 and is > 4"

Yes, and it doesn't fall into either of the categories that Apple's slide says are in demand.

huh

Which incidentally is consistent with the fact that the Nexus 4 was never a big seller outside the tech community.

I think you said read the slides again

I am clear on what they say. What point do you think I have misunderstood from them?

The part where you think the nexus4 wasnt part of the < $300 group

Fair enough but for that to imply anything about 'most android devices having large screens' you'd need to show that most devices in the < $300 group also have large screens.

The existence of one such device that is known to have sold poorly, even though it was a good product doesn't tell us anything about that group.

Apple's documents do not show that most Android phones have large screens. That is the original claim you made.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

Oh, I see you edited your earlier comment. In any case your edited version is still not supported by Apple's slide.

I didnt edit my comment

It's still not supported by Apple's slide.

What isnt supported by Apple's slides?

40% of the growth came from phones > $300 and > 4 inches. Only a couple more million units > 4 inches is required from the < $300 group to be the majority. Apple's next phone will have a larger screen because that is where the majority of the growth is coming from.

the nexus 4 is 5 inches and < $300 by the way. 4 inches is quite small in todays market

Reply on news.ycombinator.com