This girl in SF stole my MacBook Air | Hacker News Reader

This girl in SF stole my MacBook Air

ahryunmoon.com

165 pointsamartinezfonts205 comments

I don't know what the general environment is like there in SF, but in London, UK there is no way I would ever leave an expensive shiny laptop unattended in a public place like that. At the very least I would always ask someone else to keep an eye on it. Sorry, I know that's not very productive - good luck in your attempts to salvage whatever you can.

I happen to live in SF, but I don't care if you're in SF, London, Podunk or Peoria, the protocol for going to the bathroom in a coffee shop or other public space is to pack up your stuff and take it with you. You may lose your seat but it's much better to keep your stuff.

Asking someone to watch it - if it's not someone you know well and trust then what good does that do? What if this woman had asked the one in the striped shirt to watch her stuff?

No, it is not!

I share my time over Singapore and Japan, and no one ever touches your stuff in both places; not during a bathroom break, not even during a lunch break when people leave their shiny macbooks to keep their seats warm.

This immediately invalidates all the other comments saying that uniformity of behaviour/lack of entrepreneurship is a consequence of this in Japan, since it also works in Singapore where (perceived) entrepreneurship is much higher.

Theft is a problem. It doesn't bring about good things, nor does the lack of it bring about bad things.

Quite the opposite!

There is indeed no theft in a dictatorship.

> This immediately invalidates all the other comments saying that uniformity of behaviour/lack of entrepreneurship is a consequence of this in Japan, since it also works in Singapore where (perceived) entrepreneurship is much higher.

No, it doesn't. In Japan, that safety is a product of a culture of uniformity, which invariably results in a lack of entrepreneurship/innovation.

In Singapore, that "safety" is the product of an authoritarian government that severely curtails civil liberties and human rights. Free speech and political freedoms are restricted, chewing gum is banned for non-medical purposes, and the punishment for possessing 500+ grams of pot is a mandatory death sentence. Archaic and barbaric punishments such as caning continue to be practiced. Such an oppressive government is not something we want in the West, regardless of the "benefits."

As Benjamin Franklin said:

> They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Yep, Japan has no innovation and no entrepreneurship :rolleyes:

I guess all those famous Japanese brands just some how happened without any entrepreneurship and their products happened without any innovation.

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be snarky but seriously... Your excuses are BS and don't live up to any scrutiny. It's not an either/or thing.

> I guess all those famous Japanese brands just some how happened without any entrepreneurship and their products happened without any innovation.

The Japanese are very skilled at taking what others have done and incrementally improving it. By reverse engineering American cars, they were able to beat the Americans at their own game, producing more reliable, efficient, and defect-free cars. Thanks to the cooperative nature of their society, they avoided the antagonistic relationship between the UAW and the Big 3 American automakers that led to many of the financial problems faced by the Big 3. Similar success was seen in electronics by companies like Sony, allowing them to produce high quality TVs and other high-tech consumer products.

This sort of societal cohesiveness (along with cozy government-industry relations) removed a lot of barriers to the sorts of large and capital-intensive undertakings that are common in manufacturing. But it rarely produces the sorts of game-changing innovations that Silicon Valley, and America in general, is known for. The nature of Japanese society also prevented companies from restructuring and outsourcing their manufacturing to China, which allowed South Korean (and increasingly Chinese) rivals to largely displace them in consumer electronics. There's a reason why Sony's products are so unpopular these days - they're expensive as hell. Even in the automotive industry, Toyota/Honda are starting to get overtaken by the likes of Hyundai and Kia.

> Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be snarky but seriously... Your excuses are BS and don't live up to any scrutiny. It's not an either/or thing.

Actually, the problem is that you have a very shallow understanding of the situation. This isn't the sort of thing you can really comprehend with some weekend blog-reading. The Japanese should be credited for exploiting their post-WW2 alliance with the US to rapidly transform their economy while much of the world dicked around with communism and most of the West was in no better shape than Japan itself after the destruction of WW2. But transient effects stemming from quirks of history, although intriguing, don't disprove the bigger theory.

Except my old mailman who grew up in San Francisco in the late 40s told me that nobody in his multistory apartment building when he was a kid ever locked their doors even if they went out of town. I'm not sure what the difference is but it's not authoritarianism.

In my experience (Australia) the protocol has been to leave your stuff at the table. I've seen people leave their stuff for an hour or more sometimes (though it seems a bit rude to use up an otherwise unused table for so long).

Generally if someone leaves their laptop to go pick up their order / bathroom I try to keep an eye on it. I assume they'd do the same for me.

Tangentially, when I visited Melbourne a few years ago, I left my backpack, with my laptop, phone, and accessories on the tram on a Saturday morning. When the lost & found office opened Monday morning, the bag had been turned in, complete and intact.

I wish I knew who turned it in, so I could've shouted them a pint or whatever.

London has lost thus element of civil society

I figure chances that a random person who you ask is going to be much less likely to have bad intentions than a person who offers to you to watch your stuff.

The second best alternative is to leave non important stuff (your coat or some cloth for instance, depending how you value it) and take away the valuable stuff.

Or if your laptop has a security slot then bring a portable kensington lock.

This is what I do. I've personally witnessed a laptop being stolen from a cafe in SF, but only from the very front very close to the door, and the guy had walked to the back to go to the bathroom.

I didn't actually see the guy run out. I'm usually buried in the back heads-down focused, as Bezos would say. But I heard some screaming, turned around, and a woman actually ran after the guy (not her computer!) for four blocks. Finally the guy dropped the computer and she picked it up and showed up 5 minutes later miraculously with his computer. The guy whose computer it was only then came out of the bathroom not knowing his MacBook Air had been stolen!

why didn't you do anything to stop this?

Is a stranger's laptop worth getting your face smashed for? Or stabbed? It doesn't sound like anybody's physical well being was threatened, so why risk your own?

Maybe you could take a picture then tell them, if anything happens to me in the next 5 years, this picture will be sent to the police.

But at any rate, it is better to shut up and give description to the owner.

I highly doubt that a person stealing laptops from Starbucks is going to stab you.

Because violent street thieves are unable to walk into a coffee shop?

If you live in a city where violent crime is not uncommon, don't assume that a thief is a nice person just because you've caught them in the act in a coffee shop.

Have you been to San Francisco? I don't know the rate of stabbings, but I have seen plenty of violently unstable people here that I wouldn't want to provoke.

I agree that it's quite inexplicable why a woman who didn't know the owner of the laptop ran after the thief who was at least a third bigger than she was.

Why was the thief at least a third bigger than the woman?

I didn't actually see him, but he was a grown man by all accounts, and the woman was on the smaller side. So she was something like 120 lbs. max and he was at least 180 lbs.+

It's so weird when people look out for each other. It's like they're actually decent human beings or something!

Interesting. In addition to victim blaming, it appears that all bystanders are also being blamed.

Yep, better to lose your seat that your MacBook Air...

If you saw a sign that said "4k surveillance video on premises" would you feel secure? At some point the fuzzy video quality will be good enough that people are really going to have to find another line of crime.

I've been in places in NYC where I run to the restroom and have left my laptop.

Obviously, you're going to have a lower risk of theft if you take everything with you to the restroom. But there are places I've lived where I am fairly confident I could leave my laptop unprotected in a coffee shop once a day for my entire life without it ever being stolen.

If the coffee shop isn't busy I sometimes take my laptop with me and leave all the other stuff. This is in a place kinda like Peoria though. If I was in SF I'd probably pack up everything.

The protocol in Japan is to leave your stuff at the table and go take your dump. In fact, it's protocol that when you enter a coffeeshop (starbucks, mc donalds, etc.), first find out if there is a free seat. It could be on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd floor. Leave your stuff there to claim the seat. Then go back to the 1st floor counter, order and get your drinks/food, wait to receive them, walk back to your stuff.

The point you should get from this is that PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED YOU LIVE IN SUCH A SHITTY CULTURE AND THAT YOU TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOUR STUFF BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL STEAL IT.

After living in a country with very little violence, a country where you don't have to pull your car radio out of your car, where you don't have worry about what alleys you walk down, a country where if you leave your bags or wallet on a train you'll get them back, I was very ashamed of my own country, the USA, where I used to think I was safe but in reality I'd just learned to avoid the ever present danger rather than do something to fix it.

Now comes all the replies telling me how much Japan sucks in other ways. That's not the point.

Your comment has plenty of interesting content, but telling people that they should be ashamed to live somewhere where other people commit crimes is completely senseless. Those people have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to be ashamed of.

> Your comment has plenty of interesting content, but telling people that they should be ashamed to live somewhere where other people commit crimes is completely senseless.

Arguably, the attitude that this is senseless -- that, IOW, people have no responsibility for the qualities of the broader society -- is part of the problem.

Realistically, somebody who is the victim of petty theft is not responsible for the circumstances that led somebody to become a thief. Expecting people who were robbed to feel ashamed that they were robbed is absurd. They are a victim. Not to mention that most people do not have the resources to relocate themselves to a country with less crime. Greggman expecting these people to feel ashamed that they have been unable to flee their country is worse than absurd; it is patently offensive.

If the thief can be said to be a victim of circumstance and therefore not responsible for their actions, then the same can be said even more strongly of their victims.

My response wasn't to the victim. It was to the commenter that basically suggested it should be common sense the victim shouldn't have left his stuff out.

That shouldn't be common sense. It's shameful that we think it is.

> If the thief can be said to be a victim of circumstance and therefore not responsible for their actions

He can't, fairly, so no conclusion can rest upon this premise.

There are actually two similar but distinct interpretations of "ashamed" and "embarrassed." One implies that there is direct personal responsibility involved, as in "you deliberately lied to me, so you should be ashamed of yourself." The other is essentially the opposite of feeling pride, and doesn't imply any personal responsibility, as in "I'm ashamed that my school would make such bad decisions."

You're assuming the first interpretation, but one could, through application of the principle of charity, assume the second interpretation.

Yes, you are SO enlightened.

Gosh I hate when this happens. An American goes overseas, and suddenly thinks they've discovered nirvana and that everyone back home is now inferior. There's gotta be a name for this syndrome.

Every culture has good stuff and bad stuff. There's no need to scream in all caps about the USA because people in a major city center recommend one doesn't leave $3k worth of gear unattended in a busy coffee shop.

IMO there is. Because we put up with it. We take for granted that "of course leaving $3k of stuff at a busy coffee shop it's going to get stolen". That's the problem. That we accept it. There's a whole set of rules we've learned to work around these problems. We think they're common sense. That is until we experience places that point out they aren't common sense. Rather they're just a way of letting us not actually deal with the problem.

The response to "I left my stuff out and it got stolen" shouldn't be "Oh, you shouldn't have left your stuff out". It should be "we should catch that criminal and find a way to make it so it's safe to leave your stuff out".

And I didn't say Japan or Singapore were nirvana. Only that one part of them points out things we take for granted shouldn't be taken for granted.

In some cases, going to the bathroom with your stuff is almost like leaving your place vacant for any one else to take. In crowded cafés, this may not be optimal. I wonder if cafés provide customers with pamphlets to put on the table saying `Occupied` while they are gone to the bathroom with their stuff would be helpful.

It's like leaving your place vacant because you ARE leaving your place vacant. That's a good thing.

If a coffee shop is so busy that you won't have a place when you get back then take a break and come back when things are quieter. Or pay for a coworking space.

(I remember trying to get a table with friends at Blue Bottle years ago... each one was occupied by a loner staring at a laptop, nursing a coffee, and ignoring everything else. It was sad.)

At least in US bars, you can leave your glass on the bar with a napkin over the top to indicate that the seat is taken and the drink should not be tossed. I don't know if cafe patrons might honor this convention?

Depending on your gender and/or the bar's orientation, or other factors, this may not be entirely safe either. Drugged drinks are not unheard of.

These warnings should be given with some care, because they can create a false sense of security.

Most studies have found that most of the time that people believe a drug was added to their drink, the only drug they actually consumed was alcohol. Alcohol is by a long run the most common date rape drug; it is far more likely that your attacker will trick you into drinking more than you realize.

So if somebody is buying you unfamiliar cocktails, merely guarding your drink against adulterants can leave you vulnerable to the cocktails containing far more alcohol than you are aware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Alcohol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Media_coverage_a...

I wasn't aware that date rape drugs could tell the gender of the drinker.

Date-rape drugs are likely more often delivered to women than men. It's not the drugs, but the drugger, who is doing the discrimination.

It's also not unheard of for same-sex drug- or alcohol-based assaults to occur.

Presumably the cup is empty? And it's just a marker?

I've seen this done with non-empty drinks, so no, not always.

I do this with coasters. However I have been told that in some areas, a coaster on top of your glass means the opposite, signalling to the bartender that you are done with your drink.

In a way, it also helps turnover of tables - it's a soft way of ensuring new customers can get seats and the people who got there first don't stay all day (short of an explicit X hour limit)

If the café is that crowded, is it actually a problem if people working on laptops lose their spot if they take a bathroom break?

I grew up in the SF Bay Area and feel the same way. I thought that this is how the whole world worked. You have to be constantly concerned about having your possessions stolen if you leave them briefly exposed in a public place.

Then, I lived in Tokyo for a few years. People leave belongings unattended in coffee shops and restaurants all the time. It's a common occurrence to see someone put down their belongings at a table, leave them there, then go order food or drinks where their belongings are out of sight.

Sure, there is still theft in Japan. But it was a really eye opening and nice experience to see that there are places where distrust of others in this context isn't the default state.

I know that I'm the weird one, because everybody I know never lets me forget it, particularly on this issue. But I've always thought the opposite: I always thought it was weird that everybody thought somebody would steal their stuff. What are the odds of that? I've always left everything unlocked and left my stuff wherever if I needed to walk away. In all my 35 years, I've only ever had one item stolen: a cheap bicycle. Granted, it wouldn't have been stolen if I'd locked it up :)

i started getting paranoid when it actually happened to me. Think about this girl who got her laptop stolen. Do you think she'll ever not be paranoid about leaving a laptop in a cafe? She'll be packing that up before she goes to the bathroom for the rest of her life.

It's not weird at all, in my opinion, because it's just so TRUE. There ARE weird people out there that simply want everything that you have and will take it all when they get the opportunity. Not to mention the people who are stealing because they really need the money, and people with Alzheimer's who can't help stealing things.

I've never had a flat tire in my life, but I'm still driving with a spare tire in the trunk.

People with Alzheimer's can't help stealing things?

probably meant kleptomaniacs

The odds are probably not high, just high enough. It's more of a statistics game, and even with a relatively low rate of theft, occurrences will happen.

And when they do happen, they'll be very loud and publicized. That's probably what we see more often than first-person cases.

I still leave my bicycle unlocked even though I've had one stolen.

The bike cost $30. If I get one stolen every 10 years, I figure I'm paying $3 / year for the convenience of not having to bother with locking or carrying a key.

In a sense, it's the replacement that someone who has their bike stolen is paying for, not the original. If it gets stolen, you'd need to get a ride home, find a new bike without transportation for a bit, and put in a decent amount of time and money to fix a bicycle at that price.

The odds of getting your stuff stolen are very low. But having your stuff stolen is so bad, that it is worth doing stuff to avoid it, like taking it with you to the bathroom.

That's not necessarily true. There is a cost to lowering the risk of theft. In this case, it's mostly the time it takes to pack up the stuff, and potentially losing your seat in the coffee shop. There must be point where it's not worth lowering the risk of theft. It would be highly dependent on the cost of your possessions, the likelihood of theft, and the cost of risk-lowering activity over one's lifetime.

This is true in China even if that doesn't seem intuitive: go to the bathroom, just leave your stuff at your table and you'll probably be fine. Depends on the traffic though.

You'll also hardly have a problem in the states barring some high crime areas.

Not only Japan. Singapore and China are the same. When leaving in Singapore it took me a long time to trust it, but I never trusted leaving my laptop.

Sweden also used to be like that, but it's been changing over there.

Unfortunately most places are not like this. From developing countries (especially Brazil) to major touristy cities in Europe. :-/

That's just sad

Sure, Japan's culture is great when it comes to personal safety. But many would say that that same culture is responsible for its economic malaise of the last 25 years.

Yes, but those two aspects of their culture are totally orthogonal. Why can't we build a society where we have the former and not the latter?

> Yes, but those two aspects of their culture are totally orthogonal.

No, they're not. The social uniformity and equality in Japan that makes Tokyo surprisingly safe for its size is also responsible for the lack of entrepreneurship and innovation in Japan.

> Why can't we build a society where we have the former and not the latter?

If you want some young people to succeed spectacularly, then you also have to allow some (a lot) of young people to fail spectacularly. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you want some young people to succeed spectacularly, then you also have to allow some (a lot) of young people to fail spectacularly.

How does the second statement follow logically from the first? How does putting a floor under the bottom of humanity automatically put a ceiling over the top?

I think of it as two normal distributions. One is tight in the centre with few outliers at either end, the other is flatter. More excellence and more rubbish. The former is Japan, while the latter is your baseline - I believe we were using USA. It is common to see normal distributions, but rarer to see them skewed in the way you are proposing.

Note, I don't believe this is deterministic at the individual level. People choose to do crime or to think differently. Nevertheless, at the level of society, the law of large numbers applies.

People choose to do crime or to think differently.

One of the interesting conclusions one can draw from studies of physics and biology is that it's highly likely that "choice" is really a very complex chemical process, rather than some independent act that a unified person entity performs in complete isolation from their brain and body.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is completely true, I think we can make significant progress in improving people's ability to "choose" by approaching the problem of detrimental or criminal choices from a biological and physical perspective -- that is, to use a rational, scientific approach to influencing brains and bodies as highly complex, sentient physical objects, rather than a moral, philosophical approach to distributing punishment and reward.

>> it's highly likely that "choice" is really a very complex chemical process, rather than some independent act that a unified person entity performs in complete isolation from their brain and body

I see this as a false dichotomy. It's the old mind/body duality again. Your assertion about chemicals is not wrong, but you'll run into trouble if you act as if it negates the subjective perspective.

If the subjective perspective is an illusion, an emergent behavior of a complex reality, then wouldn't we do better by trying to alter the reality (biochemistry and environment) directly than by abstractly influencing the illusion with notions of reward and punishment?

There is absolutely no reason it has to be a normal distribution. But let's say you started with one for the sake of simplicity. You could shift the peak a very small amount left (with taxes) and use that money to bring the entire left edge up to the same standard of living. This would have next to no effect on the right edge, the ones succeeding spectacularly.

The distribution is already highly skewed anyway.

> How does putting a floor under the bottom of humanity automatically put a ceiling over the top?

There is no fiscally responsible or sustainable way to do the former without doing the latter as well.

It's fine to make that assertion, but how do I know it's mathematically true, and what makes it true if so?

This comment may be suggesting that the hidden cost of trust in Japan is uniformity of behaviour. Which can have economic consequences when individuals and organisations are unable or unwilling to embrace disruptive change. If so, I tend to agree with the comment.

"Disruptive change" is a funny euphemism for theft. I'll have to remember that one.

My argument was that uniformity of behaviour can have different consequences simultaneously. A positive one can be trust (lack of street crime). A negative consequence of uniformity of behaviour can be lack of disruption.

I don't understand how uniformity of behavior is inherently anti-theft. These still seem like unrelated things.

Uniformity of behavior may not be inherently anti-theft in all circumstances. What I see this happening in japan though is that, to a larger extent than I have seen elsewhere, people are consistently, almost uniformly, pro-social. Group consideration tends to trump individual opportunity. Consider the different value of cost/benefit to society and to the criminal of a criminal act. I am arguing that Japanese will tend to see the social cost more than the individual benefit, even when they themselves may be the beneficiary. And on the other side of this coin, as we have been discussing; the same social consideration tends to make people more reluctant to force unwanted (disruptive) changes on others who might be hurt in the short term.

That may or may not make sense, but I was just cracking a joke.

huh?

Interesting bit relatively early in the video: the thief asks someone to watch her bag. I'm assuming the idea is that the person would then ask back, "and boom".

That's clever. Whenever I get asked to watch another person's stuff in a cafe, I wonder to myself why they think I'm so worthy of their trust. Recent laptops which suspend quickly and lack delicate hard drives are easier than ever to move with you at all times, so the problem is easy to obviate.

> Whenever I get asked to watch another person's stuff in a cafe, I wonder to myself why they think I'm so worthy of their trust.

Because by asking you, they are trusting you. By not asking anyone, they have to trust every single person around.

Plus, if their stuff goes missing, they can be pretty much certain who the culprit is, in terms of offering some kind of description to the police.

In college a thief used the tactic you describe, establishing trust by asking to watch his stuff, to a girl in finals week at Starbucks. I think she flunked that semester.

Thank you, Simone.

Simone??

Yeah this is very dependent on where you live.

I was pretty shocked when a co-working survey asked if you felt you could leave a smartphone or laptop alone. Where I'm at, you can leave these alone without fear—it hadn't occurred to me that it is a serious problem (which obviously it is and always has been)

In my area, you can leave a Retina MacBook Pro out and not expect it gone. (If you work for a company where your laptop has serious data, then of course that stuff should be on lockdown. Most people I know with stuff like that have it locked away in secure cabinets, etc and don't leave it out.)

Anyhoo, yeah students can leave a MacBook Pro Retina, walk away for coffee or to use the restroom and then come back to it. The probability of it being stolen exists, but it is tiny. (Also the culture is such that if someone took something, it wouldn't be a surprise for others to be like, "Hey! What are you doing?!" )

There was this thing on TV where a black male actor was cutting a bike chain with a saw or something like that. Many people confronted him. He said "The bike has been here for a long time." And they told him: "It's not your bike. You can't just take it."

Then they showed a white female actress doing the same exact thing. A couple people asked her what she was doing. She said to one person "I'm stealing the bike." They offered to help her.

I don't trust those things on TV. They seem so easy to slant in a direction that suits the producers. That's not to say that a bias wouldn't exist in that scenario. However, it's not like you can conclude that most people would stop a black man from stealing a bike, but help a white woman do the same, from the sample set that they CHOSE to show.

That's very true. It wouldn't be too surprised if the whole show was fake. Especially after finding out about Breaking Amish.

I think you could conclude that from common sense. People are much more racist then they think they are.

I think it is this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg

Among many issues: * contrary to the narrator's statement, the two males are not dressed similarly * they speak differently * there is no black female control

And of course, being a TV show, there is no systematic statistical analysis.

Now, TBH even with more rigorous protocol I suspect the conclusions drawn would be similar, but as it stands, this "experiment" is not altogether useful.

That was disturbing watch, but not necessarily because of the racist aspect.

I felt 70% of the reason why the Hispanic guy was confronted by people was because he was a much smaller than the white guy.

Had it been similarly sized black guy, nobody would've dared scolding him.

It's socially unacceptable to be racist, but we think being 'sizist' is ok.

Uh, are you really saying that big black people are not victims of racist abuse?

It sounds like he's saying "people are more likely to intervene if they think they could take the other person in a fight". If you're afraid because of a size differential, you're more likely to stay silent (not "you" specifically, but the societal "you")

I am in the bay area (east bay, not SF) and frequent a couple of local coffee shops to do some work. Thankfully, the places I go don't have quite the turnover a busy area like SF does, and there are a lot of regulars. People kind of keep an eye out for each other and their stuff when they leave to use the restroom. In 2 years I haven't seen or heard of anyone having anything other than a bicycle stolen.

Of course I know that doesn't mean someone won't drop in, swipe something and run out, so I still occasionally will take my laptop with me and leave my (otherwise worthless) backpack on the chair and coffee on the table. But if I see a few familiar faces nearby I don't feel too bad about leaving the laptop on the table for a couple of minutes. Of course, I'm rocking a 4 year old off-brand PC... not exactly a desirable item. A high-end machine or anything Apple and I might handle it differently just because of the value.

The cell phone is another matter, as I feel like those are a much easier and somewhat more desirable item for thieves. I don't even leave that on the table while I'm sitting there, it stays in my pocket at all times unless I'm talking.

What area would that be? Color me skeptical.

the Midwest.

No it's never safe to leave your laptop alone. However, SF is not that big. And the security camera got a good look at that girl. I would not be surprised if she is caught pretty soon.

I checked the video and it get a pretty clear view of her face. I wonder if I would be possible to upload a screenshot to Facebook and see if it can auto tag her (Facebook brought back facial recognition right?)

Yes having lived in both places petty crime is 10x worse in London vs SF.

I'm generally quite careful with my belongings when I'm out in public. I'd never leave my stuff out unattended and never with a stranger.

But when I was in London, I was being constantly nudged by people to move my belongings, secure them better, etc. I remember being in a pub and my bag (which contained my laptop) was just resting right next to my chair on the floor. A woman who where there came up and said, "You'd best move that unless you want it to get nicked." This was in Soho, so it's not like I was out in the boonies, either.

I've lived in SF and Chicago, but I'd never be that careful here.

So, perhaps London has more petty thefts than the typical American is used to? I dunno, but everyone around me — friends and strangers alike — seemed to be orders of magnitude more conscious about it than I was, and I consider myself pretty conscious.

I'm near DC. I'd guess >95% of the time, you're stuff would be fine while you head to the bathroom or get a refill on the coffee. But, that's still a significant risk, especially once you add hassle factor onto any dollar value.

To be honest, I can't imagine taking a laptop with me to the bathroom. It seems both awkward and fearful.

I prefer to not live in an environment of fear, even in NYC. Statistically speaking, it's very unlikely that anything will be stolen, especially since I usually ask someone to keep an eye on it.

Also, my insurance would cover theft——in many cases, renter's insurance or your credit card will.

I live in a small city in Vermont, and I would never, ever leave anything on the table if I was going somewhere that I couldn't see the table.

That's very much true for SF too, though I can understand the temptation. I always feel weird carrying my stuff to the bathroom with me (not to mention if you're trying to save your spot - at Philz coffee getting and keeping a table is a battle).

Singaporeans have a solution for this: they understand a pack of tissues or a business card on a table to mean "reserved": http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fXrUY-3NMjc/Tspv4vvgSDI/AAAAAAAANv...

But what if they have no tissues at hand? Using a smartphone is also fine, because there is so little crime: http://www.mrbrown.com/.a/6a00d83451b52369e2019aff6d022f970b...

Yeah, that's why I'd probably ask someone to keep an eye on it, rather than take it with me - I often do that with possessions, although not a laptop, in public situations (cafe, bar, train, etc.) I'd rather live in a society in which we trust each other to keep an eye on our stuff, than one in which we have to take everything with us for a quick pop to the bathroom. Of course, I'd rather one in which the threat of something being stolen didn't exist at all ...

it's gotta be true just about everywhere. in the suburbs, people ask me to watch their laptop all the time (but only when I'm working on my own laptop). And I often see people pack up all their stuff, just to go to the bathroom.

I once packed up my laptop and took it with me when I went to the bathroom at a coffee shop even though at the very next table were four uniformed police officers.

In retrospect, that was a little silly.

I try to act normal when police officers are around. I never know when I'm going to see the same police officer again. That would extend to packing up my stuff and taking it with me. Also what if the police officers left while I was gone?

I think that's changing with the proliferation of cameras and tracking mechanisms. Seems a good chance this person will get caught. Worth it?

Ironically at 1:34 in the footage it looks like the thief asks another patron to look after her bag while she went to the bathroom.

Ironically, that's what the thief does when she goes to toilet.

Seriously. What did she really expect to happen?

I'm the girl whose computer got stolen in the video. Thanks to all warm-hearted people out there who cared to share my story, my blog is down. Please check out my new blog post on Tumblr.

http://butterflyinyou.tumblr.com/

Change "pray" to "prey"

I'm 35 years old and can never remember the world being different that 'if you leave something out, it will get stolen'.

But still, somehow, there is a subset of commentators in this thread that aren't aware that it only takes ONE dishonest person to jack your shit.

In a coffee shop with 20 people that is 5% of the population. Almost 3% of this country's population is under correctional supervision at any given time. The odds are not in your favor. Carry a backpack for your stuff and take it with you to the bathroom. If you lose your seat it is a small price to pay for something that doesn't belong to you anyway.

youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UbrzO...

the basic story is the girl in the striped shirt stole the laptop and phone.

Steal happens at the end, from around 2 minutes in: http://youtu.be/UbrzOLh8Eb4?t=1m55s

Given the laptop is, presumably, worth a fair bit more than the phone, and the phone can probably be used to track the thief, to some extent, interesting that she took both.

Is it inappropriate somehow that I feel incredibly happy that it's not some 20-something dude of African American descent who lifted the goods? At least innocent folks walking along the street won't get harassed by the cops...

I had my laptop and backpack stolen from our office in the Mission 2 years ago, it was broken into on a Saturday while I went out for dinner with the team before coming back to grab my backpack. That time, against my hopes, it really was a pair of African Americans. I was pretty mad because they'd taken my passport with it, which I had brought into the office to take copies of. The stuff was never tracked down and I don't think those guys were caught either. I just hope innocent people weren't harassed by the cops in the process =/

> Is it inappropriate somehow that I feel incredibly happy that it's not some 20-something dude of African American descent who lifted the goods?

Well since the thief is white blond girl! Because i'm black and I know the distrust i get everytime I go somewhere. Call me paranoid, i'm not. People are.

Anyway i'm sure it's not the first time she does that.Pretty sure the victim would not have let her laptop on the table if a black person was sitting next to her.

I can't tell if you are asking if it is bad that you:

  (A) expected it to be a black person 
  
  or
 
  (B) were delighted that the outcome was not what you expected

I think it's both.

If you're African American, I don't blame you. Muslim Americans go through the same sense of relief when a terrorism-type crime happens and the perp is not Muslim. AAs who perpetuate the stereotypes make you cringe.

I'm a somewhat dark Indian, who grew up in the Middle East (and have a passport full of Arabic text and stamps), so I am subjected to a colorful variety of stereotyping, but each to slightly lesser extents.

So even though I'm not AA, yeah, seeing one of them perpetrate the stereotype really makes me have an inner battle to treat the next AA I interact with, as a respectable human being. And that's just depressing, because I'd hate to be treated like most of the negative stereotypes I could be associated with.

Take it to the local news. Most have a segment for stuff like this.

On the side note - Even though I do see people leave their laptops unguarded in my relatively safe area, I still use a cable to lock my $300 laptop up when I have to go to the bathroom. Couldn't fathom leaving a $1000+ laptop just sitting there.

Just looked at the video - the thief paid for her drink with cash so no chance of tracing via credit/debit-card. The best bet is to try and get a good face shot of her and spread the word around. Unfortunately the video quality does not appear good in the Youtube posting.

If there is tracking software installed on the stolen device(s) then of course that's the best avenue for getting it back.

I managed to get the blog link to load, and there are halfway decent face shots there: http://www.ahryunmoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/la...

(Being a direct file link, hopefully people have better luck loading it under load than a dynamic page!)

So, what's that facebook trick that people use to get the name from a photo?

Also, wait til Reddit sees that she didn't leave a tip.

the randomish automatically generated filename for fb photos is unique, and sometimes publicly accessible.

The blog is down again :) New post on Tumblr http://butterflyinyou.tumblr.com/

She also had to ask where the restroom was, suggesting she's never been there before. So she probably won't go there again.

Also, the police can know who was there by looking at the mobile phone locators.

>If there is tracking software installed on the stolen device(s) then of course that's the best avenue for getting it back.

Reminds me of http://preyproject.com/. Pretty handy for people who have laptops or phones which leave a dent in your wallet.

I'm curious how thieves profit off the theft of these devices. The phone will be tracked and can be remotely bricked. If the victim knows the laptop's serial number or uses iCloud, it also has a decent chance of recovery. Even if the thief wipes the machine, I'm guessing Apple will notice the serial number if it's ever brought in for repair.

The only thing I can think of is trying to flip it on Craigslist. That would require an odd arrangement where the buyer didn't meet the thief at their home. I'd be very suspicious if a seller only wanted to meet at a coffee shop and, once meeting there, didn't show me an ID or Apple receipt (or show me the serial number in their iCloud account, etc).

With so many incentives against stealing these things, and such a tiny reward, I'm honestly confused why people do it.

>I'd be very suspicious if a seller only wanted to meet at a coffee shop and, once meeting there, didn't show me an ID or Apple receipt (or show me the serial number in their iCloud account, etc).

I wouldn't be that suspicious. It is not unreasonable that someone would want to do the trade in a public place, and not give out their personal address. And I typically don't think to ID people who are selling me something.

When it's something expensive and easily steal-able, I make a token effort to ensure it's not stolen. That means either:

1. Meeting at the seller's place.

2. Seeing a receipt of original sale or some other evidence of ownership.

3. Seeing an ID so, if it's stolen, I'll know who sold it to me.

4. Checking against registries for stolen things. Not all stolen things are registered as stolen, but the thief isn't willing to take the risk.

Refusing #1 and lacking #2 is completely understandable, but if they also refuse #3 and #4, I'd be really suspicious. Fortunately, I've never had a seller do that.

Oh, and when it comes to expensive stuff, I really don't feel comfortable counting money in a coffee shop. It quickly attracts attention. It would be quite plausible if someone noticed the money, followed the seller, and robbed them (or just stole their bag).

Now I wonder why the idea didn't occur to me earlier: Meet at a bank. It's safe, secure, and it might even be possible to avoid using cash. I'll definitely consider it the next time I sell something on Craigslist.

I would advise against meeting sellers at their homes (at least in high crime areas). My father has represented several criminals who lured people to their apartment complexes with fictitious Craigslist ads for iPhones and robbed them at gunpoint. I always insist on meeting at a public place.

It's not hard. I have (had?) a client for a while who had a pretty questionable past. He came in to our shop one day with a shiny new laptop, needing the password cracked on it and a new account set up. He said a friend gave it to him but forgot to give him the password. All my alarm bells went right off and I said, sure, and then checked in to it.

I found some of the PO's personal information on the laptop. I called the local police department, and they weren't interested, they said to call the police department where it was (edit: maybe) stolen. I called that police department, they said they'd check their reports and call me back.

I called back the next day, same thing. Second day, same thing. Third day, same thing, so I called my local police again to see if they could speed things up. Still not interested.

All in all, we held on to it for a week before finally returning it to him.

I really hated to do that. I've had my stuff stolen before too, one of my friends had her laptop stolen. It sucks, a lot. I really wanted to at least make sure it hadn't been reported lost or stolen. But all of the authorities involved were totally uninterested, and I didn't feel right about doubting my customer enough to contact the PO directly, either.

Pretty likely that a buyer exists for whom a price exists that would outweigh whatever their level of suspicion. We need theft-mitigation measures but we also need high-profile demonstrations of them so that they eventually become deterrents.

It's incredibly easy now with services like the ecoATM:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/A-number-you-ne...

Those aren't really incentives against stealing. In the end she's still getting something for nothing, the only potential downside is getting caught taking it.

More info for anyone who could possibly help:

"The theft happened at a coffee shop close to Taylor and Post St. in downtown San Francisco. The girl in the stripes who stole the laptop and phone stole came from the west side (Tender Nob area) and left with the stolen goods towards the east."

I leave my charger behind to mark my seat, and food items, but never leave my laptop, phone, or bag behind. I might leave a jacket I don't care much about. Carrying my laptop into the toilet sucks, but it really isn't an option.

I feel really torn in places like airport lounges. There I will leave a bag containing a hidden laptop, but still not an exposed laptop. In a secure coworking space, the yc office, someone else's office, I might leave a laptop exposed, screenlocked, but not a phone or pile of cash.

I want my own office to be a place where $10k cash, $50k watches, etc can be comfortably left unattended, but that is pretty high as a bar.

How much of that is dollar value of the device and how much is the frustration of having to restore from backup and hoping the crypto is good enough that the thief just formats and reinstalls?

Generally my machines are full-disk-crypto, locked firmware, etc., so if one fell into random-criminal hands, it wouldn't be that horrible from an information-security perspective. Replacing a $3-4k laptop, $1-2k in random accessories in the bag, etc especially while on a trip would actually be quite painful, though. Single-round stolen laptop is probably survivable, just expensive and inconvenient.

In international travel, the other thing I'm afraid of is surreptitious physical tampering of the machine itself by someone like the MSS, with it being returned to me for future use. i.e. someone adding a hw keylogger, or other modifications. I'm not particularly concerned about MSS doing this to me in the US, but if I were on a business trip in China, it would be top-of-mind, and I'd never let non-tamper-evident hardware out of my direct control. I don't leave laptops in hotel rooms in China; despite having some cool technology to detect tampering, it's not foolproof, and I'd prefer defense-in-depth. I also tend to use throwaway equipment (not my new rMBP) when going to a place like China, and will decommission it afterward (pull the drive, put a new drive in, eBay it).

It's more of a pain now that I'm doing hardware stuff with prototypes. I'm working on secure bootloading as a feature, but even with that, I want to keep the physical design safe before production. Luckily they're pocket-sized.

Leaving a bag in an airport lounge seems like it's likely to trigger a big security alert?

Inside a first class lounge, especially in international terminals, people leave their carryon bags at their seats all the time (getting up to the bar, food, whatever).

(I love that I basically pay cheapest coach fares, and through gaming FF programs and credit cards, am either in the business/first cabin, or at least have lounge access. It's a really fun game.)

Direct link to surveillance footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrzOLh8Eb4

Thief is the woman in the striped shirt

There's a crazy dynamic in the main Columbia University library that I don't think exists anywhere else, and always shocks other people when I tell them about it.

Columbia is super space constrained, and during heavy study times there simply aren't enough chairs in the library for everyone who wants to study there to do so. People get up early just to take their books and their laptop to set them on a table or desk. You can walk through the library and though every single spot is occupied with stuff piled up, you'll generally only see about half of them with actual people there, sometimes way less.

And are you going to move someone's stuff and put your own down? What if they just stepped out? What if they come back while you were doing it? You know most people are being assholes about it, but clearly you shouldn't have to pack up to get a drink of water. It's a bad bit of game theory.

And people leave laptops all the time, for days on end. You going to mess with someone's laptop just to get a seat?

Your server is overloaded. HNDOS. Can't help you if no one can see the site. Post the images to imgur.com and link to it there.

Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrzOLh8Eb4

simple anti-theft for coffee shops - small program which upon laptop/phone movement starts sound like car's anti-theft. Need to go to bathroom or to just place the device on the table to reserve the spot - start the program and lock the screen. If laptop battery is detached - small USB stick look alike battery in USB slot.

That sort of power through USB is unrealistic.

The other bit, motion detecting, would rely on closing the lid not sleeping the computer (as a thief will generally close the lid before taking the item)... Most people have that, but it can be disabled.

It would probably make more sense and be more feasible to have the USB stick be the alarm, and have it sound if the computer is closed while it's in.

However, that sort of thing is so easy to fool that it would have to rely on not getting big enough that thieves learn to work around it.

>The other bit, motion detecting, would rely on closing the lid not sleeping the computer (as a thief will generally close the lid before taking the item)... Most people have that, but it can be disabled.

the alarm program wouldn't let computer go to sleep (until battery is at whatever "low" threshold). That is one of the reasons why it is a "program" not a daemon - it would be expected to be started by user explicitly when needed.

Battery detachment has always been a way to attack the anti-theft in cars. With laptops it is an issue too. Not with phones though.

iAlertU does this, unfortunately too many false positives that I had to stop using it.

A friend of mine left his laptop unattended at a library in San Jose, and it was stolen within minutes. Fortunately, the police somehow identified the thief using CCTV footage and recovered the laptop. Last I heard, the dude was in jail.

if her name is ever posted on the internet(and associated with the video), this is going to follow her for her whole life.

As it should.

right, the last time i dated or chose to work with anyone i definitely searched on the internet for their name and 'stolen laptop video'.

just watch your shit, and it won't get took.

When you apply for a job companies do background checks. Not many business want to hire a thief. It tends to eat into the profits.

*tooken

I've come to this cafe a few times. It's Joy's Place on Post St. in the Tenderloin/Tendernob. I think I've also seen the victim of the theft there a few times (working in XCode). Probably not the first time she's left her stuff and used the bathroom; assuming she felt the cafe was a safe/trusted place to leave items unattended.

In other thoughts: the thief pulls the ultimate scumbag move and asks for someone to watch her purse whilst she uses the bathroom. Then steals from someone else in the bathroom. Always keep your valuables attended!

Did she try Find My iPhone/Mac?

http://www.apple.com/support/icloud/find-my-device/

I feel bad for her, but if you wouldn't leave $2,000 in cash on a table at a coffee shop, you shouldn't leave it in electronics either.

I'm almost certain the thief asks someone to watch her bag within earshot of her victim as a subconscious way to let her victim know that she too (the thief) believes that random strangers can be trusted.

I feel sorry for the victim but I found that bit an oddly impressive piece of mind control.

Cache'd link anyone ? Google doesn't seem like it was fast enough to get a copy of this one.

Here you go: http://imgur.com/eXr5lzQ

Grabbed at 6:50PM PST

And now is when I noticed the MacBook Pro Retina doesn't have a hole for a Kensington lock...

> the MacBook Pro Retina doesn't have a hole for a Kensington lock...

It doesn't, but Maclocks makes a plate that you can screw to the bottom of your MacBook Pro with Retina display to contains a locking mechanism: http://www.maclocks.com/mac-locks-macbook-pro-lock-macbook-a...

Unfortunately, it's too late for OP, but I hear Undercover works well for recovering stolen Macs:

http://orbicule.com/undercover/mac/

Not sure if somebody else posted this but do you have the serial numbers of your devices? From what i know, if you report them to apple, apple can remotely deactivate your devices.

Good luck finding the thief! One thing I do, that is not always helpful (if the thief formats the computer it's useless) is that I install prey on my laptop. (preyproject.com)

I live in a small country town where a few decades ago people didn't lock their doors. I pack up my laptop when I go to the bathroom.

If you think juggling your laptop and trying to keep a seat is a hassle, imagine having 3 young kids including a baby in a pram, being half way through a meal and one needs to go to the bathroom and needs help and you have a laptop and ipads and the bathroom is down some stairs. And when you get back the table has been cleared! BTW my takeaway from that is that adults or children need to go to the toilet in advance when it is most convenient, not when their bladder is bursting. Saves a lot of drama.

That space used to house my pet boutique Cheeko B. Now it's "Joy's Place". Not sure why victim did t mention the cafe name.

what did the police say?

as usual , website down after submitting it to hacker news!

new link: http://butterflyinyou.tumblr.com/

This is one reason I use a $200 Thinkpad (with Linux). I don't worry much when I leave it on the table to go to the bathroom - it looks like a banged up piece of plastic, but it's very functional.

Problem is the data,not really the computer. I know a mac is expensive but i couldnt care less if mine was stolen, the data is what is the most valuable.Same with the phone.

Thieves are selfish,sociopathic persons who will exploit everything they can from their action,including the data on a laptop.

The idea is not just that I'm only out $200 if it gets stolen; it's that, since it has negligible resale value, the thieves won't bother with it - not worth the risk. Also, I have a half dozen of these at home (on the home ThinkPadNet), so I just have to pick up another one, pull from one of my personal git repositories, and keep working. Also, before getting up to go to the bathroom I unmount the ecryptfs volume that holds anything sensitive.

A better solution still is just to keep your programs in your head. That you wouldn't even be out the $200.

Same here, a used x201 I got on eBay.

Full disk encryption, almost instant backup with Wuala, and the good fortune that a $150 device being stolen won't be devastating to replace lets me leave my laptop unattended when I need to use the restroom.

Internal Server Error (Memory issues it seems like)

It's down. Please view this new Tumblr post http://butterflyinyou.tumblr.com/

Did they ever catch the B?

Well... yea.. I suppose shit happens

That's the Tenderloin for you.

that's pretty nonsense, since just about anywhere that is busy it's silly to just leave some multi-thousand dollar device out amongst strangers. As many have said, I'll leave a drink or some food out, but even beyond trusting people, I think it's rude to ask anyone to watch over anything but your seat or a beer / sandwich. I don't want to be responsible for your shit.

It is not as exciting as being an anarchist, or marching in an occupy protest, but helping out a fellow human being by watching their stuff with a smile probably makes more of a positive impact in the world.

Time to get a better server! :)

blog down

The victim's website has on her about page

* slow to learn but quick to remember

* afraid of changes but change constantly

* shy and insecure but love taking risks

* dreamer and artist but grounded by analytics

Guessing #1 and #3 are very true.

"She" doesn't look like a girl or even female to me. "She" looks like a "he" masquerading as a female.

Heh, somehow, I ended up with -3 points. Anyway, according to the victim's blog, "The major twist to this story was the thief was actually a male."

She's wearing a prison uniform! Why would you trust someone who's already wearing a prison uniform? Maybe she left her sack with a dollar sign on it at home, but the uniform should have been enough of a giveaway.

http://www.ahryunmoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/la...

The pants don't look like a prison uniform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrzOLh8Eb4

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