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Comment by jusben1369 | Hacker News Reader

It's a little like this being 1969 and Eich, having grown up in the Deep South, admits giving donations to a Proposition to stop interracial marriage. You could rationalize it by saying it's happening at a time of very rapidly changing social views on what's normal and that he's from the South and that he's not against blacks per se. He just doesn't think it's a good idea they breed with whites. But it's still wrong.

I have no sympathy for Eich as he's a fully grown adult who works in one of the more open minded industries in one of the most liberal parts of the US and he actively wants to lead people. A great leader has to be tolerant of a wide range of social and cultural POV. He demonstrated he's not very tolerant. Bad sign.

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If that part of the country was really as liberal as you seem to think, Prop 8 wouldn't have been passed by a majority of voters.

It could be 99% of the voters that supported it. It's still objectively morally wrong, just like Jim Crow laws were.

@jiojk542: it's morally wrong because it denies equal treatment under the law (tax benefits, government benefit benefits, survivor benefits absent a will, etc) to law abiding people. You are the one creating a false equivalency. People that would like to deny same-sex marriage are free to not marry someone of the same sex. Their freedom is not being curtailed. The same is not true the other way around. That wikipedia link is patronizing, unimpressive, and unconvincing. edit: the only "impingement" on the freedom on the anti same-sex marriage side is they must tolerate the presence of people the do not approve of. Such is the burden of a democratic, pluralistic society.

@LordKano - I literally do not understand your point. This is about the civil recognition of a personal relationship. A justice of the peace "marriage" has no religious meaning, nor does a marriage ceremony performed in a church have any civil component absent a marriage license. There are religions that allow same-sex marriage ceremonies. Are they "immoral" religions? Is it a violation of the 1rst amendment (vs the 14th) to not permit the civil recognition of those religious rituals? My point is denying an individual's right (not a privilege) on this is de facto immoral, regardless of your feelings about that individuals choice, if it does not cause demonstrable and direct harm to others.

@NeonVice - A marriage is a religion thing. A civil union is a government thing, which is currently and inconveniently also call "marriage". Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and atheist heterosexual couples can have government marriages even though they may have nothing in common with Christian marriages ideals. Nobody is forcing any church/synagogue/mosque/etc to perform a marriage ceremony of any kind they do not want to.

With those 3 replies, I will waste no more words on this damn topic.

Again... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

And why is it "objectively" morally wrong? Who gets to decide this? There is no scientific consensus on the causes of homosexuality.

One of the primary objections to Prop 8 was that we can't legislate morality.

Or is it that only your morality should be eligible for codification in the law?

Of course we can, we do it all the time. What are you defining as "morality that we can't legislate?"

A homosexual male could not marry a man and also a heterosexual male could not marry a man. They are both equally treated under the law. What you want is to codify attraction into the law. Government should get the hell out of marriage and instead only deal in civil unions. Individuals can decide if they are married or not.

> objectively morally wrong

I wonder how the conservatives, or the taliban, or communists, or ... call their version of "objectively morally wrong". Oh wait ... probably exactly the same.

> There are religions that allow same-sex marriage ceremonies

Are those religions "objectively morally right", or should all their adherents be fired from their jobs ? Or maybe all the other religions ? Atheists perhaps ? Come on, who do we fire ? Who do we burn ? Do tell.

> With those 3 replies, I will waste no more words on this damn topic.

Exactly, you advocate firing people for their political views, and you've gotten your way. Remind to refuse any job offer or business opportunity or cooperation I ever get from you. Let's not pretend that this makes you anything but a bigot and a total asshole.

The difference, obviously, is that Prop 8 denies rights to some people and does not affect anyone else, aside from offending them.

I don't understand your point about my comment about religions that permit same sex marriage. I think it's pretty obvious I was trying to say that morals can differ and in a pluralistic society, we err on the side of permitting individual freedom. Same-sex couples should not have to live by certain interpretations of the Talmud. Charismatic/Evangelist Christians should not be compelled to use birth control. Sikhs/Muslims/LDS members should be permitted to wear religiously significant clothing. Is that controversial?

Finally, I have actually defended Eich's promotion at some length in non-HN forums. I believe that Mozilla stands for privacy protection and the highest quality open/free software. In that regard, his viewpoints/goals and mine are very close. As strongly and fundamentally as I disagree with him on other subjects, I felt his leadership would be beneficial to Mozilla. I regret he was forced out, I think it was a bad decision.

Now, that being said, don't worry about turning down a job offer from me. I can disagree civilly, but you've called me a bigot and an asshole, and I am done with you.

You seem to have rethought your position on this, your previous post defended the firing of Mozilla's CEO based on his political opinion.

I am glad that you consider that wrong and I just misread you, or you changed your opinion for the better.

Remember that it was passed with the help of a large amount of money from an out-of-state conservative "religious" organization.

I mean the Bay Area which is a pocket of about 8 million mostly liberal folks.

Found this: "Proposition 8, which banned same-sex marriage in California, passed with more than 52% of the vote statewide. In the four most populous Silicon Valley area counties, it received just under 38% of the vote. The measure was later overturned by the courts."

"A great leader has to be tolerant of a wide range of social and cultural POV."

First of all, it was made very clear in all the articles on him that he has never shown any mistreatment of anyone because of their sexual preference. It seems that his intolerance isn't in question. If you want to put that quote on anyone, I'd aim it at the leaders of OKCupid. The hypocrisy is so stupid.

I'm not sure what to tell you if your starting position is his this is not about his tolerance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

Sexual orientation does not equal race. Scientists have never isolated a gay gene. There are no definitive causes of homosexuality. His opinion of homosexuality as a choice is as scientifically valid as your belief that it's innate. Why is he wrong and you right?

Worried enough about posting this that you'd create a new account so that people don't see this connected to whatever your long-term identity is?

Don't you see? If anyone decides to say an unpopular opinion that offends the left, their lives and careers would probably be ruined. Doesn't that stifle conversation? How is that a good thing?

If sexual orientation is a choice, then why aren't there throngs of "straight" male scientists choosing to be gay for a while, fucking a bunch of dudes, enjoying it (that's the key part), then writing papers on it?

It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. Can Eich claim that he didn't have a choice about his political activity?

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