San Francisco Police Department: Duties, Salary and Benefits | Hacker News Reader

San Francisco Police Department: Duties, Salary and Benefits

sf-police.org

39 pointsmakeramen66 comments

It's not just the salary that is high - the pension benefit (as is typical for California) is astonishing: Up to 90% of salary at the very early retirement age of 58. These kind of pensions schemes are the reason many states (especially California) are experiencing budgetary crises.

(1) The California budget crisis was as much political gridlock as anything else and appears to be currently resolved. Certain people used it as a an opportunity to attack public services and public sector unions.

(2) These particular salaries (SF police department) are financed out of local revenues and have nothing to do with the state budget anyway.

(3) The cost of living in SF is sky high as we all know, good for them for paying appropriately if they want to get the best people.

This may not change your view of whether their salary is high or low, but keep in mind that like most public sector workers, they are not eligible for Social Security benefits, and don’t pay Social Security taxes.

For comparison, the NYPD starting salary is $44,744.

http://www.nypdrecruit.com/benefits-salary/overview

Could anyone speak on the difference between the day-to-day dealings with serious and dangerous crimes/criminals in each city? In terms of cost of living the cities are very comparable so I'm astonished to see the difference in base salary. I'm sure the San Francisco PD doesn't take off Fridays like most municipal offices in CA.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...

Edit: Upon further thinking there are ~2,000 SFPD and ~35,000 NYPD. NYPD Budget: ~3.6 Million. SFPD Budget: I cannot find.

It's worth paying for good, non-corrupt police officers. Better to pay them well and hold them to high standards than to accept lower standards for lower pay.

I have to agree: police bribery is so common across poorer countries and is so harmful to the rule of law. Better to err on the side of overpaying.

Western countries where police are paid average wages don't seem to have much problem with corruption. Overpaying seems unnecessary.

Yes absolutely. I don't think these salaries are completely over the top (though a little high for a first job).

The problem I have is with the retirement/pensions. I'm happy to put up with pensions if someone makes $50k a year for 20 years as a teacher. But if you want to make the market rate comparable to the private sector, you live with the private sector benefits.

Can't have it both ways.

Okay, but are they being held to high standards?

This is a serious question, not rhetorical. Can someone demonstrate how the officers are being held to a high standard?

For example, what percentage of officers are fired each year? There is no one "right answer" here, but if it's less than 0.1%, we know that they practically cannot be fired.

a police officer with 5 years experience typically makes over 200k total comp between salary, overtime and retirement benefits. Some make as high as $600k+ a year. Feel free to look up the public records if you don't believe me.

It's a much better paying job on average than being a software engineer

Edit: and I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't be a better paying job than a SE, just noting the facts. Many are unaware. Sometimes I see guilt threads from engineers who make 150k. They are really behind the times in this area.

Plus most police officers retire after 20 years, so technically the police office could retire at the age of 45.

These men and women are signing up to protect us, at great personal physical (not to mention psychological) risk. They should absolutely earn a living wage that enables them to live in the community in which they serve.

So do members of the military and they get paid half as much.

and cops all over the country who on average make 30-40k

I don't see anyone saying people in uniform shouldn't be making better wages.

Well, then they should get a pay raise. It's about time anyways. You can easily make $150k a year as a private contractor.

Numbers like that are likely to represent gross pay. Military personnel deployed to combat zones are meanwhile tax-exempt, and receive comprehensive benefits.

The arithmetic for comparing deployed military and private contractors is probably similar to the comparison between full-time employees and freelancers.

I think "enables them to live in the community in which they serve" is a key point that doesn't apply to military personnel in the same way.

I think they should be paid the market rate, just like everyone else.

What is the market rate for police officers? Where is the police officer market?

There is absolutely massive supply trying to get these high paying jobs. You can look at the number of applicants. Acceptance rates resemble those from Ivy league schools. I know because when I found out, I wanted to be a fire fighter. But then I realized that it's kinda like the mafia. You have to know someone on the inside to get in.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the meaning of "market" in an economics context. I highly recommend getting at least a basic understanding of economics and economic terminology. It is very helpful in understanding the world.

You pay the minimum amount that gets a suitable candidate.

A good way to test is to see how hard it is to find candidates. If few people are showing up, you aren't paying enough. If you have crowds of people camping in place two nights before for the jobs [1], you are paying too much.

[1] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Chip-Johnson-Oakland-m... Too add insult to injury the people were chosen out of the crowd to get to apply, almost assuredly friends and family of existing fire fighters, but that's "just" a corruption issue, not the larger issue that demonstrates how much over market these rates are.

People with no qualms to include prospective bribes and extortion money in their calculations could accept lower wages. Free market at its best.

I agree that people should earn a living wage that enables them to live in the community that they serve, but all cops are bastards[1].

[1]: http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/atoz/fuckpolice.php

In theory, yes. In practice I do not think we are doing nearly the job of ensuring quality protectors that the situation demands.

Follow the link to read about a recent case of abuse by the SFPD. Notably, they beat up and put into solitary confinement a person who they acerbically associated with "wannabe billionaires"

https://medium.com/human-parts/9f53ef6a1c10

I am for supporting police with a good wage, but there are astonishing increases in police militarization and abuses of power. There should be a real balancing force, like with other professionals. One that works.

> "These men and women are signing up to protect us..."

There is a lot of propaganda to that effect, but most of their actual activity does not support that. Solution rates for strong-arm robbery and serious property crime are low, and the prisons are full of small-time drug sellers.

It also makes no sense that police officers need to live in the municipality in which they work unless it would help reduce the crime rate.

Here's one to mull over... unless associated with a Fire Department, most EMTs working on ambulances are paid near minimum wage (sub $10/hr in most parts of the country). When I was working on private ambulances building experience, it was usually of great surprise to the baristas serving us coffee that they made more money than the person who provides emergency medical care when you dial 911.

Looks to be a supply issue for new police officers. I hope the government will create a new foreign worker visa to allow talented foreign peace keepers and law men fast tracked entry in to the US to ensure the safety and prosperity of our citizens and future generations.

If all the other Bay Area police departments offer similar compensation and benefits, as seems to be the case, SF will have a hard time finding new recruits at lower pay. So it's impossible to tell if it is a demand or supply issue. The first thing you would want to look at is the number of applicants.

This is very similar to the issue with CEO compensation - high pay at competitors just encourages even higher pay with little to contain it. I wonder if they use the same consultants to justify ever increasing pay and benefits.

Is it a matter of supply and demand or the effectiveness of SFPD's union?

In contrast Detroit Police start at $30,137. Something tells me the San Francisco police don't have to transport dead bodies in their cars or any of the other horror stories I've heard from the DPD.

At the same time, $30k buys you more in MI.

And similar with Detroit Fire: http://www.detroitfirefilm.org - long, hard, dangerous, and badly paid, with fire engines that are badly maintained, in the highest arson area in the world.

112k seems pretty high for entry level work, considering they most likely don't have a college education, but maybe it makes it possible for them to live here

Police officers put their personal safety on the line daily. I think this compensation is adequate.

I wonder how it compares to other 'public' sector roles that are less unionised - e.g. nursing. Do they earn 100k a year?

So do quite a lot of other people. Consider the rates of fatal injuries and salaries at http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-jobs-in-americ...

Safety makes a huge difference. It is so ingrained into firefighter culture such that despite the risks of this profession, it doesn’t rate as one of the most dangerous jobs (although overall it’s much higher than would seem to be the case - 44 fatalities would put it on this chart, but for the large numbers of volunteer firefighters in remote areas that rarely see a call).

You don't need any form of education (besides high school) to become a police officer? If true, that's pretty surprising to me.

It's true in most jurisdictions, as far as I know. Having a college degree of some sort can help get you on the fast track to promotions and/or investigative positions. At the sheriff's office where I worked in the past, you didn't get beyond Captain without some college (with certain exceptions for under-the-table nepotism of course).

In San Rafael, CA, you need a college degree to become a police officer.

Why would they need a college education?

> 112k seems pretty high for entry level work, considering they most likely don't have a college education, but maybe it makes it possible for them to live here

Couldn't you say the same about many software developers earning six-figure salaries?

After all, we all know that one doesn't need a college education to be a successful developer either.

Doesn't the salary reflect what the people of San Francisco believe their work to be worth?

There's a range listed because (I can't speak for SF specifically, but I have police friends in other Bay Area cities) different skill sets get you a different starting pay. For example, if you have a college degree and speak Spanish, your starting salary will bump up from 80k. If you are part of a K9 unit, your starting salary will bump up from 80k.

Twenty year San Francisco resident here. $110,000/year is decent pay, but its not enough to afford to pay a mortgage for a small home in the city. It's a good idea to have your first responders living in the city they serve, you know, in case of an emergency (i.e. earthquake).

I'm glad to hear they pay well, and if that's the base pay, hopefully the more senior officers make enough that they can buy a middle class home and settle down in the city they serve.

Also, good pay = less corruption. SF is the only place I've lived where I trusted the cops.

That seems reasonable. Being a police officer is a tough job, and San Francisco is a very high cost-of-living area.

This should be heavily publicized. Hopefully, by letting people know that they can earn a good living by being a police officer, the quality of candidates will continue to increase. Entering the police force still carries a stigma, IMO, particularly around not being highly intelligent or thinking for oneself. Those are likely the people we want as our police officers; I'm more than happy to have my taxes support such pay levels if we do attract those people to the force.

It's the culture, not the pay. Want to get horrified? Go read cop boards like officer.com.

I get paid to be a software engineer and volunteer as a police reservist in my spare time. Maybe I am doing this the wrong way around :/

I think it's fair considering how much it costs to live in SF these days. They also risk their lives everyday serving and protecting. You shouldn't be complaining if a police officer makes more than you. Their potential of making money is actually peanuts compared to civilians. Do you know any police officer billionaires?

I do know a police officer multi-millionaire.

And another that is a co-founder of a company he is doing on the side and seems to be finding some success. There are very few intellectual property clauses in their contract and it is a job that they can leave at the station door when they go home in terms of creative energy.

Those two are admittedly outliers but when I was running events I had to (well, it was strongly suggested by the police themselves) hire off-duty police officers for $80/hour for security. Not to mention overtime which is fairly common.

In short, yes they risk their lives, but these folks have more opportunity to pad their bottom line than you seem to imagine.

Problem is the overtime and pensions.

Salary is in the ballpark.

I don't know any software engineer billionaires either.

I guess they exist, but I've sure never met them, and the chance of becoming one is statistically indistinguishable from zero.

The base compensation is reasonable given the high cost of living in SF and the personal risk associated with the job. The pension is tougher to justify. Up to 90% of your salary at age 58 until EOL is likely unsustainable for the city. Cue epic battle between those who support public pensions and those who don't.

I think the only way we could to tell if this is too much or too little is if we had a free market for protection services. Since we don't, we can only speculate. Maybe, it's actually not enough. I can't object anyone receiving a high salary, but if this salary is paid out of my own pocket with no consent of mine and with the police force regularly abusing their powers, then yes, I believe this is not just too much - this is outrageous.

Only 10 days of paid vacation? That's really a bit low IMO.

really 22 days---sick days are separate. Plus more holidays than typical in private work

Sick days are not vacation.

Tell that to companies that take your sick leave out of your vacation time.

Seems reasonable to me. Do you want police walking around that aren't well-paid?

higher than I made my first year out with a masters a few years ago

Reply on news.ycombinator.com