You will become who you choose to be around | Hacker News Reader

You will become who you choose to be around

kevinchau.me

70 pointskevinchau39 comments

Although I have to accept that the premise is generally true, it is also a little concerning. Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond like family: someone you're always there for in good times and bad.

Instead, philosophies like the one espoused in this article transform that deep friendship into a friendship of "utility". It kind of reminds me of the political marriages sometimes considered typical of the upper classes in various historical societies: when "love" may not even be a factor in a marriage.

I have a friend that has said similar things to this article. It makes me wonder: are we friends because we've been through a lot and share that bond, or is he my friend because I present a certain "utility" to his success? If the latter, does that in turn mean our friendship is discarded as soon as I fail to present that utility?

Why does it have to be either or?

Maybe your friend initially wanted to be friends with you for the utility reasons. But now over the years you've grown beyond that, you have a bond.

This is one of the reasons it's so hard to get rid of toxic friends (not saying you are toxic, just an example.) You've formed that bond that keeps you together even after the utilitarian reason is long gone.

Which begs the question, are there any friendships that don't start from a utilitarian reason? Why did you become friends in the first place? Did you work together? Have similar interests? Did you just need someone that wanted to play late night Japanese board games with you?

No matter the reason, it doesn't make your bond any less real.

also depends on how you define a utilitarian reason. If you are new somewhere for example, you will try to get to know people just so you are not alone, and first connections that served to just not be alone might develop into great friendships. Aren't new connections and friendships always utilitarian in some shape or form in the beginning ?

I think there is truth to this. Even beyond "new". Maybe I like to think that I'm friends with my friends because I care for them, but is there another reason; a subconscious utility I'm deriving from them too?

Probably, even if its just having a good time.

is he my friend because I present a certain "utility" to his success? If the latter, does that in turn mean our friendship is discarded as soon as I fail to present that utility?

Nobody sticks around the friendship they get nothing out of. Friendships are two-way streets.

But it isn't like you will necessarily be used and thrown out like yesterday's garbage; as he grows, so do you. In a strong friendship, you grow together (in both senses of the word)

> Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond like family: someone you're always there for in good times and bad.

I don't know about that. I don't want my happiness to come purely from people sacrificing their own. That'd be a horrifying way to live. I want people to support me, to a certain extent, in bad times, but I don't want to ruin their lives or drag them down with me in any significant way.

Your friend has a shitty week? Sure, it'd be an ass hole thing to cut her out.

Your friend is depressed for many years? At some point you've got to start thinking about yourself. At some point I'd want people to start thinking about themselves.

On reflection, I don't think my concept of close friendship is someone who's always there for you. It's an equal, someone who's responsible for their own happiness and finds life richer for sharing it with me.

If you want to have friends who will be there for you when things are hard, then you have to be willing to be there for them when things are hard. That said, you should still choose people who have the abilities and attitudes that allow you to be what you want to be.

What does this mean in practice?

Here is a real example. A feeling of personal responsibility is important. While good and bad things happen to all sorts of people for reasons out of their control, the ones who take personal responsibility for their situation turn out better. And not just better in the long run, they become better people. How fast? There was an interesting experiment on this where students were asked to read an essay, comment on it, and then were provided with the opportunity to make a small moral decision. Students who had just read an essay on determinism were less likely to make the moral choice than ones who had just read a similar essay on free will.

The more we believe that things happen because they happen, the easier it is for us to justify immoral decisions like taking money instead of returning it to the owner. The more we believe that we are responsible for our own choices, the harder it becomes to justify petty theft.

So stick with friends through thick and thin. But choose ones whose attitudes represent what you want to become.

Interesting. Do you happen to remember the actual moral choice they had to make? It seems to me a belief in free will encourages (potentially amoral) reprisals and vigilantism in a way that a belief in determinism doesn't necessarily encourage.

I'd have to look it up. But if you want to read it for yourself, the book I ran across it in was _Who's In Charge?_.

You may not "become" but there is definitely tremendous influence on you based on who you hang out with. Even if you are the leader/aggressor type, you will start getting "influenced" by the other party. I am saying this strictly based on my own personal experience of course.

This topic has resonated with me a lot lately. My professional life has not really been moving where I want it to be in last 3-4 years. Yes, ultimately I am to blame and no questions about it. But all my friends/co-workers/family I hang out with are very similar to me in many ways. I realized that I think a lot like them now. Nothing wrong with that but it is just not where I see myself.

In contrast, many years ago, I really wanted to do something drastic in my life which would mean going against all odds. I pulled it off. The only reason I can think of now is that I hung out with people who were already doing that drastic thing. I followed them and hung out with them. We became really good friends. Not to take away my hard work that I put in, but if I had to give the main reason I succeeded then was the company I had. I should mention that those people were all much better than me at what I wanted to be.

You want to be an entrepreneur ? Go hang out with other entrepreneurs who are already doing it. Of course, you cannot be a sycophant. You still have to do the hard work, you still have to sweat it out but the right company and influence on you can really speed your drive towards where you want to be.

Ok, I wrote all this stuff but time to really go and find the "company" I want to be in. I know what/where they are but it is just my laziness that is keeping me from getting to it. This post probably gave me the kick in the butt I needed. Really hope so.

It is good to have friends who aren't quite like you. It is good to have friends who don't work in the same fields as you, or who aren't obsessed with chasing success. Why? Because, hopefully, they can call you out when you start handing yourself over to workaholism/bad relationships/excess drinking/etc. Ideally, you'd let these people stretch you so you can balance yourself out; even if it means part of your entrepreneurship neurosis is lost.

These sorts of articles disgust me; it's insane how much people value their career.

I didn't read it at all as entirely career focused. The author is saying "if you have high ambitions, don't hang around with people who have low ambitions." He's not saying "live in a bubble."

This has less to do with the advancement of a career and more with your long term goals. The people you are around the most will be the ones who influence whether you reach your goals. Definitely have friends who are very different from you in terms of career, activities, interests. But don't have friends who want you to go out drinking every night if you have grander aspirations.

Note that this kind of advise is good for the 20 somethings. That's like how your parents want you to avoid hanging out with the wrong crowd at school, don't be stupid a few years later.

As you grow older though, it takes so much effort to maintain friendship that you will naturally lose contact with people that do not share your values in some respect.

I very much agree with Kevin here. I grew up in a very average neighborhood with low ambitions and never really challenged myself. In college, I got with the wrong people my freshman year and eventually lost my scholarship.

Being out of school and with a chip on my shoulder has led me to learning how to code, starting a startup, and being accepted into a top college accelerator despite not being in school. The people I am around now are KPCB fellows, former interns at top startups, and thoroughly ambitious. Without this environment, things would not be moving nearly as quickly.

Conversely, my brother went to a Math and Science academy and is now at an Ivy league school. The same Ivy League school I am now at as part of the accelerator program.

Like people attract like people. So if over time a person becomes a new person, why should they feel held down to the old people that they were once like? I know for me the friends I am making now are like me and they are pushing me to become better. Ultimately, that is what you really want in a friendship.

I think the causation is at least partially the other way around - people you choose to spend time with reflect who you are.

When you try to game the correlation by forming friendships aspirationally, this largely breaks down. It's much more important to come to terms with who you are than to try to become more like someone else. When you're trying to be X, you're not X, you're just someone who's trying to be X.

If you'd end a friendship because your friend wasn't ambitious as you, who would want to be your friend anyway?

It's rarely intentional. When you're young, friendships are unique. Your best friends are always together and it's very time consuming. If you decide to be more ambitious, it means you are also deciding to be less present in your friend's lives. It may take months/years, but you drift apart.

I've done this a few times in my life. I'm still friends with those people today, but it's the "text once in a while" kind of friendship. The kind of friendship where you talk about old memories more than create new ones. It just happens.

I generally agree with this. Not only does hanging around amazing people make you a bit more amazing, but it generally increases your drive and pushes you in whatever direction your buddies are going in.

Maybe it's just me, but I also get a huge kick out of doing what other people I know WON'T do.

Maybe it's some innate craving for attention, money, fame, whatever, but I really love doing things completely differently than my peers. Whether it means working on projects most people don't find interesting, pushing myself to do things wayyyy out of the ordinary in regards to jobs / physical stuff, or whatever -- I get a lot of satisfaction from pushing myself beyond what everyone else is doing.

I don't always come out successful, but when I do, it feels fucking fantastic >:)

I have a pretty diverse group of friends -- so I'm not sure if this makes a difference -- but I find myself wanting to constantly out perform my buddies (even though I'm happy to help them succeed, and vice-versa), as a way to stand out or something.

Shrug.

I'd kind of beg to differ on this one.

Six years out, of my high school friends, two have left the hometown (in addition to myself). Of my college friends, half are un(der)employed.

I don't strive to be different from them; I like my friends. I still spend time with them, I get together with them whenever I can.

Now, at my job, I'm in a very typical enterprise-y position, with all the things that that entails. I've been informed that I'm very talented, that I'm a rising star; but really, I just want to keep moving my career forward. I'm not going to do it at (too great of) expense to my social life or my relationships, but I want to be in a position where I've got a chance to grow and learn. It's become increasingly evident that that may not be here.

Also, "having a friend" and "choosing to be around" certain people are 2 totally different things. There are many ways to be around people including volunteering, playing sports, and especially taking a job. Those people can exert great positive influence on you regardless of whether you become friends with them.

Obviously, there are many people that we're very close friends with, even though we're rarely surrounded by them.

So its generally when you're choosing your friends around some utilitarian metric that you begin tread into sycophantic waters.

Surround yourself with world class olympians - become world class olympian.

Even assuming it is true - aren't there a whole lot of other things one could optimize first, before sieving out friends?

Who knows, you might even become an inspiration to your friends and they might change along with you.

Also if you do things you want to do, the people you spend the most time with will change automatically. For example if you start going to startup meetups, you will hang out more with people who do startups. If you start doing more sports to lose weight, you will end up hanging with more sporty people.

This is so true and also helps explain how echo chambers develop. I always try to change my perspective on something big at least once a month. Last month I disabled flash and all my Chrome extensions. Holy cow, the default internet is weird!

I build web sites, so this helped me see the way certain people (my dad) experience the internet.

your dad doesn't have flash enabled ? how many toolbars did yo install ?

flash is still around?

There is also the opportunity for you to be the change you want to see, and be the influencer to inspire and empower those around to "become you" - positivity and inspirations spread fast and far.

Biblequote :

Stay away from a fool, for you will not find knowledge on their lips.

    Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.
    1 Thessalonians 5:21

Being somewhat introverted, this means that I am my girlfriend, my cat, and my computer. (Not necessarily in that order :)

I like the entrepreneurship story, as well as the overall message.

This is too generalized. There are born leaders and there are born followers. Followers are influenced by those around them, while leaders forge their own path no matter what. However, a well rounded person knows when to adapt. They lead when necessary, and take instructions when required. There are some people who will never become like those around them, but will instead shape those around them to their own image.

Edit: Downvotes with no counterpoints? That means I must be right, because the truth hurts.

Because what you just said is also very generalized. You put people in two buckets: followers and leaders. Where's the in-between?

> However, a well rounded person knows when to adapt. They lead when necessary, and take instructions when required.

I don't believe you. The exact degree of influence may follow a normal distribution, but no one is not influenced by those around them (except sufferers of some mental illnesses). You need to be to learn anything at all that we expect all children to learn.

> no one is not influenced by those around them

You are correct, but not everyone becomes just like those they choose to be around. Everyone can learn from and influence others, but that doesn't mean "You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with."

I would have preferred a title along the lines of "There is a good chance that you may become who you choose to be around".

Fair enough, I can agree with that :) The statement is a bit of a hyperbole, though I do think there is more truth to the statement than most people are able to see or willing to admit about themselves.

> or willing to admit about themselves.

Including myself, probably.

And me! I guess we just made a step in the right direction.

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