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Comment by _jss | Hacker News Reader

What is the strategy for when Apple disallows sales based on the Magsafe adapter?

This happened to HyperMac (now HyperJuice) batteries back in 2011. I still have mine, ordered before Apple lawyers went after them. It's wonderful.

Edit: Adding link to Wired article: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/01/hypermac-is-back-with...

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I think that it's not about the BatteryBox product per se, but about some technology inside which is supposed to reduce long-term capacity loss. The box itself is basically a demo to sell or license the actual tech to OEMs.

This is straight up not possible. Lithium-ion batteries degrade irreversibly as they're used - the only way to reduce capacity loss is to reduce the depth-of-discharge: add more cells, and discharge them less per cycle.

Unless they're fiddling with the actual chemistry of the cells, it's unlikely they've changed anything.

Did you read the linked article?

> Batteries are typically charged and discharged through a constant stream of power, which causes problems like SEI layer formation that causes the battery to degrade over time. The BatteryOS system, by contrast, takes an active role in managing what’s happening inside a Li-ion battery, which not only lengthens the life of the battery, but also gives it the ability to store 10 percent to 40 percent more power.

Obviously the proof is in the results, but that's what they're claiming.

Active power management is nothing new to lithium ion batteries.

You're right, see for example http://www.qnovocorp.com/

Guess execution is king ;)

"Guess execution is king ;)"

Always has been, always will be.

I found this useful paper from qnovo that describes the charging process they use. It's very interesting.

http://www.qnovocorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Qnovo-In...

if execution is king, then marketing is a dark prince at least!

There is a distinct difference between reversing capacity loss and reducing it. Reduction is very possibly a pro-active stance, where reversal is by nature passive.

In this case, what seems to be claimed is a pro-active method of reducing future loss of capacity. There is certainly a lot of precedent for this without my going into analogies. See the intelligent battery handling on the Tesla Model S. Sure there are many cells there, but I'm thinking there are more cells in this battery box than there is in your 6 or 9-cell laptop. Perhaps not, though. :-)

That reminds me, I stumbled upon some very interesting discussion here while doing some research on lion characteristics a few weeks ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lithium-ion_battery/Archiv...

But real batteries are obviously unaware of these sources because there are numerous examples in the wild that have been regularly fully discharged (to 2.8 to 3.0 volts), stored at around 20 °C and kept fully charged in between times. These batteries are over 12 years old and are fully functional. The data in the article suggests that these batteries would have expired years ago, so something is clearly wrong.

In fact, real world batteries can last 15 years or more. The one thing on that site that I can positively say is false is the claim that batteries degrade if discharged below 30% charge. I can say this because myself and 2 colleagues made this defect up and deliberately planted it for the guy who actually runs BatteryUniversity to find and incorporate into the site (and he did it within 2 weeks). It was about the most harmles thing we could think of, but several manufacturers did incorporate features in their products to warn of impending discharge below 30% charge (and to be fair, probably did it with the best of intentions).

Actually, most lithium-ion cells have excellent shelf lives (10% loss of charge in 8 years, and military cells still delivering full capacity after 20 years of collecting dust

Li-ion batteries are only dead after 2 years if they are abused or their charge/discharge life is used up. Properly cared for real world Li-ion batteries last for 10 years or more (in spite of Isador Buchmann's claim to the contrary).

Note that he explicitly confirms that Li-ion batteries have a limit on the number of charge/discharge cycles they can handle. That's precisely the problem this technology is supposed to fix.

But notice the phrase "properly cared for". Do you think the average consumer properly cares for his/her battery or even knows what "proper care" is? My girlfriend never charges her iPad until it reaches 0%.

> My girlfriend never charges her iPad until it reaches 0%.

Also notice this phrase: there are numerous examples in the wild that have been regularly fully discharged (to 2.8 to 3.0 volts), stored at around 20 °C and kept fully charged in between times. These batteries are over 12 years old and are fully functional.

I have some HyperJuice units that I made cables for. It works OK, but is definitely clunky. I think it could be done in a better way, but it can only be a hack with Apple defending the walls of their garden so militantly.

For this reason I really hope GBatteries have a license to use the connector, and that they build in some cable management similar to what's on the magsafe unit, so the cable can be coiled neatly.

My other feedback is that having a built-in AC adapter would be so very useful. Look at the HyperJuice plug [1]. It's got the AC prongs that just slide out -- no separate wall wart, and no micro-usb cable. People that have only Apple devices won't have many micro USB cables around. It would also prevent someone from plugging the USB cable into their laptop while it's being powered by the external battery. :\

1: http://www.hypershop.com/HyperJuice/Plug/

(note that this model HyperJuice will not charge a laptop)

I don't remember the details, but IIRC they are Apple proof.

I have a feeling that if it can connect to a MagSafe port and work, Apple has control over it.

The claimed performance would provide a huge competitive advantage. If it worked as advertised and Apple had control over it, they'd integrate the software into their products and this box would never see the light of day as a third party product.

Apparently Apple already has it. Read the section titled "your new notebook" http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html

They have something like it. As do almost all makers of modern battery-powered electronics. But no-one else is claiming essentially no loss of capacity after 3000 cycles.

Apple boasts 80% of original capacity after 1000 cycles. Which was industry leading, at least at the time of introduction. But a long way off GBatteries' claim.

And better batteries would further buoy resale price of Apple gear, which buoys their premium pricing for new goods. If they could have this, they would want it. Badly. It would also perfectly fit their MO for acquisitions: an engineering/technology acquisition that provides a competitive advantage to their core business.

Hopefully, but color me skeptical. I don't see how anyone can be X-proof, where X is a company that has over $100 billion in their bank account.

HyperMac literally bought Apple adapters and chopped off the cable. I'm not sure how much more Apple-proof you can get than that. What you need to be is "lawyers on retainers who can keep draining your law funds"-proof.

edit: another comment suggest a MagSafe-MagSafe2 adapter is used. That's an interesting solution that may very well work if they require the customer to buy it themselves, as I believe the Apple patent hinges on using a magnet. Of course, they may want to argue that in court. For years and years.

Apple under Jobs might be different to Apple under Cook. Potentially they have Apple's blessing. Suppose a promising YC company was just going to make it for the newest Samsung laptop otherwise. What would you do if you were Apple? Just speculation, but that's how I imagine "Apple-proof" meaning, especially if there's some agreement that they can't announce yet.

Likely they will continue building the product described on their website:

"A battery management system (BMS) that increases battery capacity and cycle count"

I'm sure they can apply this to devices other than the 12% of laptops sold that are made by Apple.

From the pictures, it looks like the strategy is to use a MagSafe-to-MagSafe2 adapter.

Yep; I have the hypermac as well; it is very great. I buy new ones all the time. The magsafe thing is a bit (not much) of a hassle though. Curious as well how that will be handled.

Did you read or think about the comment you are responding to?

It's a battery technology company. This is their first product.

I don't understand the need for snark. It's a valid point. The main selling-point of their first product is that it can power MacBooks but if Apple cracks down on them for using the MagSafe adapter then this product will no longer be useful for its intended purposes.

And the selling point of their first product is a non starter, unless apple changed their MagSafe policies.

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