World's first carbon fiber and Kevlar 3D printer [video] | Hacker News Reader

World's first carbon fiber and Kevlar 3D printer [video]

markforged.com

71 pointswheresclark22 comments

Man, that is quite the hype video.

It doesn't look like it actually can print free standing carbon fiber parts though, just reinforce existing PLA printed parts, which seems like a bit of a nightmare from an alignment point of view.

Seems like that is a limitation of using carbon 'thread' as opposed to carbon sheets. Aren't most carbon fiber objects made from sheets that are shaped, baked and bound together? That doesn't seem like it would convert to fiber very well.

In short, it seems like a neat way to reinforce printed parts, but in no way does this seem to be the 'print carbon fiber' like they are selling it. You can't just plug in a model for a 3D printed piece and get out a gorgeous cabin piece.

As an additional aside, isn't there still a step of baking required? They didn't talk about that, is it a different process? (perhaps the thread is heated ahead of time?)

As far as I know, the only "printer" that can produce carbon fiber parts in three-dimensions is the circular loom Toyota developed for the Lexus LFA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AScfESzQzIQ

And a more up-to-date video showing the carbon-fibre production process BMW has created for their new i-series of cars - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaoq8Mc4xxw (a shorter version on the fibre production by the US company that works for BMW - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeST0vfDuhw )

I think Toyota is using a machine from Herzog: http://www.herzog-online.com/_rubric/index.php?rubric=Produc...

Aren't most carbon fiber objects made from sheets that are shaped, baked and bound together?

Some of the strongest ones are made from laid unidirectional thread done in the directions you want to have the least stretch, the woven stuff is put on top to give it the look. Also, all carbon fiber parts are FRP, this is just using a different P. It will be weaker than a baked part, but it clearly has potential as it needs no tooling.

Very cool if it works but I'm not convinced by the video. I already know all the applications where this can be used, how strong carbon is, how easy this machine is and only fantasy sets the limit blaha etc. Show me something you've already created and how good that is instead of pretending to try to break a pencil sized object. Was the bike fork made in that machine or just a general example of carbon fiber? I couldnt find the speed of printing either.

Agreed, they just keep showing this plastic rectangle, with a flat strip of carbon fiber sandwiched in the middle for reinforcement. Wonderful, but is that the limitations of this machine?

https://markforged.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/MF14_MK1_b...

If you look closely at the above image and squint your eyes, I think that's a carbon fiber part it actually printed, that appeared in the video for a split second. It would be great if we could see it close up. It would be even better if they printed a second copy with plastic, and then demonstrated the difference in strength.

Instead, they spent the entire video saying they're going to change the world, and then I guess you're suppose to take their word on it, and just drop $5k on the preorder.

I agree, they seem to be very light on the meaty info. I would be very interested to see how they go with their demonstration in SF on Monday.

So this has popped up on HN before, and again I would caution that this is snake oil. The sparse technical details they give are misleading, and they still haven't shown that their fiber reinforced parts are anything special.

They're having a live demo[1] at TechShop in SF on Monday (3/24/2014). I'm thinking about going.

[1] https://markforged.com/mark-one-demo-san-francisco/

I thought what made carbon fiber so strong was that the fibers were weaved together in sheets?

This new tech is not in general as strong as fiber woven in sheets. The claim they make is that it's "1/3 the strength of the best carbon fiber composites made today" and that to test this they measured resistance to bending "in the preferred fiber orientation" Their process lays down continuous strands along each layer but by its nature can't lay strands on the Z axis. So if you have a part that needs to be strong in every direction, this may not entirely solve your problem. It solves some of the problem, for some use cases.

(It also looks like it ought to be ridiculously slow.)

There's some answers at their FAQ ( https://markforged.com/faq/ ), but not as many as we might like.

This is an important point. The direction of the fibers makes a big difference. The basic method of strengthening carbon fiber weave (which is weaved at 90degree angles) is to alternate the layers so that they are 45 degrees apart, if laying up a normal flat part. When I created a longboard (similar to Boosted Boards in length) it was still very flexible, even with this method. The small part shown in the video is hard to bend, but so would a wooden part that small.

If they add a second arm with a second carbon fiber spool, they will be able to do some amount of weaving. That would boost the applications of their product significantly, IMHO.

Two problems. The software for that is hard - it would take it out of the realm of "existing software modified for our machine" to "new algorithms". Second problem - it still wouldn't be able to do the standard carbon fiber weave (or the twill weave, for that matter).

Can anyone explain what the "kinematic coupling" is, how it helps with bed leveling, and why the same approach cannot be applied to any 3d-printer?

This could be what it takes to get effective gun printing going. As soon as I can print effective guns, I will.

Why?

Why not iust buy guns? Or buy gun parts and make them? What is it about printing that's appealing?

Guns are extremely expensive, and I own many. I have many friends who wish they could own guns but cannot afford them, and thus live alone without a proper means of self defense.

I don't let anyone fire anything I own without an intro safety course and firing practice with a laser bullet, so I don't intend to throw free guns into crowds, but I do know that there is a large group of responsible people who go unarmed for the sole reason that the price of guns is very, very high.

At $500/pop, I can't afford to be charitable. At $50-100, these become birthday gifts.

As another point of reference, I bought many "high capacity magazines" in 2010 for range practice. In 2012 I sold all of them for 4x what I bought them for on gunbroker because of the gun ban scare.

The economics behind gun parts is wacky, and home production would be a radical shift in technology to finally send the cost downward.

Of course gun manufacturers would lobby against any home printing. How could they sell $2400 rifles when a decent rifle would only cost a tenth of that to build at home?

I just spent the last two hours thinking of stuff I could potentially make with this. I wish I had a spare $5K.

There's going to be a tipping point where 3D printers are good enough and new enough that you can turn a profit selling printed goods. Like any technological shift, people will flood the market, bringing down the profit sold by printed goods to 0.

Buying at the right time means that you can more than recoup your investment. I don't think we've reached that point yet.

I want to 3d print a space elevator with this :)

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