900 Workers Have Already Died Building Qatar’s World Cup Infrastructure
smithsonianmag.com
smithsonianmag.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/zaha-hadid-qata...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/german-architect...
http://www.arupassociates.com/en/case-studies/qatar-showcase...
Pointing out that someone takes jobs in a certain area of the world seems morally questionable at best. He had to take jobs somewhere.
I feel awkward for posting this, because at first glance it looks like I'm defending something terrible. But the reason I'm saying this is because this is otherwise how witchhunts start, so this is the right thing to do.
If this guy is using the modern equivalent of slave labor, then he should be punished for it. That's really all there is to say.
instead of "depending" (which sounds in this context with some active/intentional meaning) i'd say "doesn't care". Such attitude may naturally be passed up from father to son. And role of that attitude in the history of evil, and particular Nazi Germany history is well known.
My father certainly influenced my outlook on many aspects of life when he raised me. I am of course responsible for my own actions, and it is everyone's responsibility to rise above the shortcomings of their parents, but to ignore the role a parent plays in their child's development is just silly.
For example, my father is an evangelical christian. I am not. Realizing that my father is gives a window, however murky, into my development and provides context for many of my beliefs and convictions.
Noting the similarities between the father and the son gives us potential insight into the [lack of] moral development of the son.
A lot of psychological traits of a person form in early childhood. Do you think his childhood environment was very conductive to development of an unconditional empathy and other humanistic feelings toward other human beings, especially ones of non-"Aryan race"?
Obviously they are not.
However, Jr. seems to have spent his entire life trying to distance himself from the sins of his father, which is as good a thing as he could try to do.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/german-architect...
On that note, what's your dad's name?
EDIT: Huh, seems like there is some investigation going on
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/10709821...
but still. Too little, too late.
"Government agents simply told West Coast employers that the Chinese workers that they employed, they now owned. What had been cheap labor now became slave labor."
It's an alternate history of the USA where the South won.
http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/05/21/so-in-dubai-the-amo...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_%28document%29#Exit_visas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Unio...
Otherwise, (local politics, human rights aside) one shouldn't cross a frontier without considering the risk of being denied permission to come out again. Whims, national and personal, abound. Check in with your consulate -- remotely, if possible -- if that'll make you feel better.
And I'm not even pararnoid. Been there, done that. (The international travel, and jobs/labor (on and off the books) when it could be scary, that is.)
Crapshoot always. The odds change. Do the math.
Not to belittle desperate migration in search of a better life.
"The official justification for oppression is, as so often, religious. Migrants and employers are bound by the kafala system – taken from Islamic law on the adoption of children. "Kafala" derives from "to feed". Nourishment is the last thing the system provides, however. It delivers captive labour instead. Migrant workers cannot change jobs without their sponsoring employers' consent. As Human Rights Watch says, if workers walk out, the employers – the adoptive parents – can say they have absconded and the authorities will arrest them.
In order to leave Qatar, migrants must obtain an exit visa from their sponsor. This stipulation means that they can be held hostage if they threaten to sue over a breach of contract."
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/qatar-h...
Where does the world stand, in general, on this issue? What countries are doing something about it? Most Americans probably can't find Qatar on the map. Finally, shouldn't the United Nations be leading the way on this? Anytime that the US plays "world cop", even if it's "good cop", we still take criticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Qatar
As for your neocon remark, I don't see any reason why we're going to invade another Middle Eastern country in the near future. The US is probably going back to supporting the current "stable" government.
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/18/jack-warner-...
I spent some time in Dubai and Abu Dhabi and saw this "big money, big building" craze first hand... it truly is modern day slave labor. No more thought is put into the migrant workers than you would an extra shovel, concrete or tile - they are a resource to expend during construction. The locals don't see them as human, just building material.
I'm just one person, but for my part I won't reward nor contribute towards such behavior.
The next step, I hope, is in my country to strip such institutions of their tax breaks and tax exempt status. And the perpetually extorted... "public construction funds" for new stadiums and such nonsense.
I've quite enjoyed playing sports, and I don't begrudge the role of the spectator. But current circumstances have become extremely distorting; this extends to the IP lobbying that continues to hamstring technical developments around media and connectivity.
Genuine question, what exactly have you stopped doing? I guess not watching FIFA 2014 world cup is on the list?
Although I was never a sports nut, I no longer watch games on TV, at all. Recently, I told one friend I would not be attending his Superbowl party, this year. I had the prior year, with some misgivings, because I wanted to see people.
I did not watch the recent winter Olympics, and I told friends why. I shared some links to articles describing the outrageous branding practices, among other things. This seems to have gotten at least some friends thinking about the matter.
For the fellow who throws the Superbowl party, I specifically shared some recent reporting both on the ever more apparent link to traumatic brain injury (including that "Frontline" show and connected reporting) and on the enormous tax shelter that pro-sports teams have become for their owners. Also the financial shenanigans around facility financing. He has been reconsidering his attachment to the game and to other pro sports (including non-US football, aka soccer).
One friend is an auditor for the Federal government. He has taken the point that while this is not his specific purview, a lot of public money is, one way and another, going to line the pockets of specific, well-connected interests. Being an honest soul, he admits to significant discomfort with this.
I think that most people are basically "fair" and decent people. As they learn more, they find an increasing distolerance towards stomaching the situation. And they decide that there are other things they can spend their time, energy, and money on.
Again, I'm not dumping on sports. I'm communicating my strong dissatisfaction with what this "sports industry" has become.
How the NFL Fleeces Taxpayers
http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=11877
Frontline's "League of Denial:The NFL'S Concussion Crisis" Airs
http://www.metafilter.com/132838/Frontlines-League-of-Denial...
And, since I happened across an older mention of this, as well:
http://www.metafilter.com/124600/Soccer-matchfixing-probe-68...
It is known that the Brazilian government is still behind their schedule delivering stadiums and basic infrastructure.
Personally, I am proud to say the new NYC Mayor has made an excellent decision not bidding Winter Olympics (http://theweek.com/article/index/256746/hosting-the-olympics...). Multi-years of preparations before and after selection is going to take away energy focusing on real domestic-city-wide issues.
The Beijing 2008 Olympics was a great success given the amount of new stadiums and infrastructure added. Though the main stadium (Bird Net) was officially, completely finished sometime around March 2008. London's main stadium was completed in 2011 and under budget. Clearly if the government really care about the event, they will everything to stop corruption and prevent delays. I don't know anything about Brazil's local politic, but press has been criticizing Brazil government its poor coordination and corruption.
These labor abuse stories are another issue altogether and a much more serious one.
Then, once it starts, everything is forgotten and the sports become the center piece.
There are so many issues occupying the world currently that I doubt anyone from governments will raise an eyebrow for 'just 900 deaths over 2 years'.
For instance, they compare to 25 construction worker deaths when preparing Sochi for the 2014 Winter Olympics. As far as I have been able to find with some Googling, Sochi officially involved 74000 construction workers, but an advocacy group for migrant workers says that there were around another 50000 working without permits. Let's take the high figure, and that gives us 1 death per 5000 workers.
So given 1.2 million migrant workers in Qatar, then if they were as safe as Sochi workers, we'd expect 240 deaths, so 900 does indeed look like it indicates they have some major safety problems.
The comparison to 11 who died during the Golden Gate Bridge construction seems pretty worthless. The FAQ at goldengatebridge.org says it was built by 10 prime contractors and the subcontractors, but also that they don't have any employment records from any of them so can't say how many workers were involved. It's also not a good project for comparison because it actually only had two fatal accidents. The first killed one man. The second killed 10 men, when a scaffold failed and the safety net did not catch them.
Up until that point, the project had set a record for remarkable safety. The norm for that kind of project was about one death per million dollars of construction, so getting that far with only one death was amazing, and even with all 11, I think they came in quite low. It was a $30 million project, so 30 deaths would have been normal. At that death rate, taking into account inflation, a project the size of the Qatar FIFA project would have, if safety was comparable to typical bridge projects at the time the Golden Gate was built, about 5000 deaths total for the project--which is close to what the article says they are looking at. However, bridge work is, I think, inherently more dangerous than much of the FIFA infrastructure work, and I'd hope bridge work today is more safe than bridge work was when the Golden Gate was built, so this is consistent with the Sochi comparison. Qatar does indeed to be doing something very wrong.
Conclusion: something very bad is indeed happening in Qatar.
There was a single death during the construction for the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, and 10 deaths during construction for the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
http://constructiondatacompany.com/olympics-world-cup-constr...
(As you speculate for Sochi, there may also be reporting issues for the Beijing Olympics, but that is nothing but speculation on my part. I don't believe that the same could be said of the construction projects in UK or Canada.)
There is something _really_ wrong going on in Qatar.
Any number of countries have the infrastructure to support the event and would be happy to do so without resorting to quasi-slavery.
Granted, I have never worked in a developing country; neither have I worked in the United States in the 1930's.
The culture of industrial safety in the United Sates is... interesting, to say the least. The squeeze for productivity is there for sure, and it sometimes flies in the face of every employer's claim that "safety is our number one priority."
This puts the worker square in the middle of the predicament. Pressure, culture, and, sometimes, a lack of training and equipment creates the worker who is less-than-dilligent about their own safety. Then, when something does go wrong, whether it's a real accident, a "near miss," or just a "violation" that could have escalated but did not, the worker is blamed. Disciplinary action and firings are commonly heard about. This happens because the employer gets to point to "safety first," loads of policy, and their entire (huge) HSE department, while ignoring the fact that the worker was under pressure, mired in a culture of others behaving exactly the same, and, sometimes, poorly trained.
I'm talking about the United States in 2014, where we benefit from a history of labor unions, modern government regulations, two centuries of industrial experience, incredible technology, and a legal environment that scares the pants off every employer.
I cannot imagine what these migrant workers in developing countries are going through. Given the safety statistics we've seen here, can you imagine what the day-to-day grind is like?
Slavery in this region is nothing new and this choice is abominable on FIFA's part. This type of treatment is endemic in the region including the UAE. In an organization that supposedly promotes equality, Qatar and other such nations should not even be allowed to participate or be members of FIFA. I suppose money talks loudest, however, mission statement be damned. Not to mention the "mistake" acknowledged by FIFA's president already of scheduling the world cup in a country whose average temperatures in June is 81 - 106 degrees Fahrenheit. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/20130909/2022-q...)
Deleted comment
[1] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
Watch the documentary I posted below, in most cases they are not aware of such dangers. They are promised high returns and better living conditions than their original home by various agents.
>Why don't we try to advance 3th world countries instead of raging over this?
Almost every human rights violation has its root in poverty. This doesn't mean we ignore the dangerous practices of middle-eastern government. The fact is that these countries have enough money to easily avoid such conditions but choose not to, hence the outrage.
Workers from Africa/Asia are lured to the middle east for the promise of a good wage and the possibility of helping loved ones back home. When they get there, they have their passport taken, are given jobs which aren't remotely like those they were offered and are essentially forced to work as slaves in appalling conditions with no hope of ever leaving.
Google "qatar slavery world cup" and do some reading. Just one of many examples of this happening in the modern world, Dubai is another.
So, really what you're asking is "why should I care about slavery?"
My point was that I think this should be fixed where the modern slaves come from. And not where they are.
My point was that fixing the symptom doesn't fix the cause, apparently no one got that or I did a terrible job at explaining it. I still stand by it though.
I would like to stress that slavery in Qatar is not a mere symptom of social issues in the Philippines. It is symptomatic of deep flaws in Qatarien. How can I assert that with confidence? Because many other countries that are not Qatar do not condone keeping Filipino workers as slaves. How many passport deprived, exit-visa restrained migrant workers died during the construction Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park in London? It sure as shit wasn't 900. It was none.
Poverty is not the cause of slavery as a symptom, the symptoms of most poverty in the world today are bad working conditions, low pay, etc which workers do voluntarily, they mostly don't have another option than taking mean jobs, granted, but they can switch their employer, try to build a small business, etc. They can't do that if they are de facto slaves, living in a country where they have almost no rights and which they can't leave. My point is: bad jobs are a symptom of poverty, slavery is a symptom of very bad politics, despising human rights.
Talking about it and raising awareness make a lot of difference. In the end all the money from football comes from fans and marketing, with marketing representing a good part of it. Nobody will pay to have their image associated with this kind of things.
So the people who buy the products from the companies that incentive the governments to build the stadiums must know that they are killing people indirectly. We are not rational buyers, but the more explicit a matter becomes, the better we factor it into our buying process.
EDIT: Raising awareness on the fans also helps. You probably wouldn't go to a stadium to watch a game if there was a photo of someone who died building it glued to your seat or if their graveyard was courtside, it's all about making the end payer aware.
1. The workers are informed of the risks and safety hazards.
2. The workers will starve if they don't work this job.
3. The workers had a free choice whether or not to work there.
What does this has to do on Hacker News?
Both articles are about groups are the lagging edge of development; both groups are made exclusively of one gender (although, unsurprising, only the other one used that aspect to hammer victimisation). Both issues are connected to an existing hardware technology that could be, but is not of interest to HN.
I read that kind of article (both) in my daily rotation outside of HN, so I don’t mind -- but I was wondering if HN commenters had felt the parallel, and would have reacted the same way on both.
This sounds like an interesting phenomenon in that I assume this wasn't the case at other recent major sporting events.
As for TV news: http://www.msnbc.com/search/world%20cup (nothing) http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=world+cup&sub... (nothing) http://www.cnn.com/search/?query=world%20cup&sortBy=relevanc... (nothing)
I almost didn't even bother with CNN because it was obviously nothing due to the missing flight.
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
Although I do concur that this post is off topic, what is or not pertinent to this site is a subjective matter resultant to the sum of the views of everyone(by points) and heavily biased towards the view of the few who control the site. I too am breaking the same guideline if you extend it to comments, but there is no other way to let you know why you were downvoted by others (as there is no PM system AFAIK).
In this case, the only solution that I see is automated construction using 3D-printing, most likely augmented by drones to scale. That would put most of those workers out of a job -- a situation probably worst off, and more deadly than the one they are in at the moment. It follows the disenfranching trend that Brynjolfsson gives to technology, and against yesterday’s parallel example (locally made menstruating pads in rural India).
I assumed talking about that was better that the tacitly racist ‘You know, Qatari have no respect for human lives…’ that fill this thread otherwise. It might sound true (family members living there tend to agree, vocally, but they aren’t exactly not-racists) but it seems far less productive than highlighting the works of some Qatari trying to change that.