Tesla Keeps Poaching Prius Buyers, and It’s Not Slowing Down | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Keeps Poaching Prius Buyers, and It’s Not Slowing Down

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44 pointsibsathish53 comments

It is obvious to some extent, Prius was the badge of honor for many "bleeding green", now the mantle has been taken by Tesla and rightfully so.

Electric cars have many advantages - because the fuel is now electricity which can be produced from multiple sources. If you are motivated customer, you can produce it on your roof (in limited amounts usual max is 10kW plant) and of course if you have land, you can add some small medium wind devices.

But most of the people have to remember a one very green option available to them, that is use your current car till it goes into the grave and while doing so drive sparingly and only on need basis. The biggest problem with carbon footprint reduction is life-style and behavior every thing else is a symptoms of it.

One might think that electric power-assist bicycles would be a greater prize for the greenhearted, but it turns out that the Tesla S is a lot more fun to own, despite being far more wasteful of Earth's precious natural resources.

The perpetual pissing contest to decide who is the greenest often focuses too much on what is visible and demonstrable, rather than the things which are less noticeable but more effective.

Trading up from a Prius to a Tesla might earn you some green cred, but moving your home closer to your usual travel destinations and supporting commuter mass transit somehow doesn't generate the same prestige.

I'm happy for Tesla, and sad for Toyota, but given my budget, this contest for customers is a bit above my notice.

Owning a Tesla doesn't give you much green cred in my book.

Nor mine, but I don't get invited to those fancy carbon-neutral parties, either. It might be because I still conform to the archaic and unfashionable practice of burning gasoline to get to work, but it might also be due to my excessive nerdliness.

Also many disadvantages - primarily range anxiety, but also the general expense, both of the car, and of the inevitable battery replacements.

The best currently available technology is the plugin hybrid that can be used purely electrically for very short trips, but is capable of making longer distances too, as well as reducing the wear on its batteries to make them last a lot longer.

That's the one thing people don't want to remember.

What do you mean, bi-weekly trips from LA to NY in my Tesla are less green than bi-weekly trips to the grocery store in that old pickup? Ridiculous!

A bunch of rich people bought Priuses because it was the best environmental status symbol available even though it wasn't as luxurious as they would have preferred. Now those rich people are buying Teslas because it is both luxurious and a notch up as an environmental status symbol.

People that are not as rich but still want to have an environmental status symbol edge over Prius drivers are moving to the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt.

Also, it would seem that Toyota has sat back and done little to advance the Prius in the last 17 years (yes, they launched the Prius in Japan in 1997) in the eyes of the consumer or technically. I'm not a huge car guy, but I don't know of a significant change off the top of my head that has improved the Prius to inspire an owner of an older one to upgrade to a newer one.

In comparison, it seems that Tesla is really trying their hardest to make constant advancement and take risk.

Prius emissions: some value

Tesla emissions: 0.00

You could say that Tesla is just moving the problem to the power plants. Well, they solved the problem, now it is time for the power plants to do the same.

When people say that you are moving the emissions from the car to the power plant, they forget one fact: To refine one gallon of gas it takes approximately 7.5 kwh of electricity. My Volt can drive around 32 miles on that amount of electric power.

With ICE engines, you are producing CO2 out the tailpipe, in the refining process, the transport, etc.

That's a very interesting figure I haven't heard before. Do you have a source?

electricity can be produced, stored and delivered by many means; no so for gasoline and other fossil fuels. by moving the problem to the power plants it is much more easily solved in a single location with greatest efficiency, without the consumers knowing or having to worry about it. it's separation of concerns, right there in real life :)

Given energy input, you can manufacture gasoline from atmospheric CO2.

I had no idea that was even a thing. Does anyone have any resources about this, how viable is it in reality?

Although if you are getting your fuel primarily from the atmosphere, you might prefer to redesign your engines to burn a refined algae product instead of gasoline.

Theoretically. That's not exactly practical at the moment (though slowly edging closer)

What about disposing of the batteries? and the rest of the car?

In the US, 60% of the battery can be recycled.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-r...

The car and batteries are very recyclable.

Nuclear power solves that problem.

Well, I will say this as an advocate of nuclear power - the more important thing that it does is just get the cars to charge from the grid, which means the car user does not have to worry about where the grid gets its power.

I was talking to some folks at an environmental conference this weekend and they made a great point about people who buy electric cars.

"I wouldn't have been able to buy my Nissan Leaf if Bob here hadn't bought his Chevy Volt, and before that the people who bought their Prius models."

It's more important people are buying electric cars, then who they're buying them from. With increased demand, more people can see the benefits of going this route instead of the traditional gas vehicles. This will hopefully expand the market making it more attractive for other companies to develop add electric cars to their lineups.

I realize many car companies are dead set against electric, but you can only bottle up demand for so long.

>"I realize many car companies are dead set against electric, but you can only bottle up demand for so long."

The large car companies are not against electric vehicles, they are suffering the innovator's dilemma, and will likely be disrupted.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma

It really surprises me that the rationale behind the switching from a Prius to a Tesla doesn't involve something along of the lines of "Tesla is an American company". I mean, I'm a foreigner and all, so there's nothing nationalist about that comment, but I would expect some form of economic pride and patriotism on the par of American buyers in these times of economic downturn.

Also, were I American, I'd be really proud of what Tesla pulled off with the Model S. It's American muscle car meet new economy meet green energy meet entrepreneurship. Seeing France struggle with their attempts at electric cars, I really envy America on this one.

I think the concept of being proud of where its made doesn't really matter for most people as much as the media might portray.

I've had tiny Japanese cars from the 80's and 90's (which were a mixed bag), an American made pickup truck from the late 90's (which was fantastic), an American made car from the early 2000's (which was a piece of shit), a handful of Japanese motorcycles from the mid-late 70's (fun for what they were), a some Italian made scooters (utter crap for their build quality), and now a BMW motorcycle (engine made in China) and I'm about to buy another BMW motorcycle that is 100% made in Germany.

There doesn't seem to be any consistency about where its made and the quality. I really just want the best made thing on the road that can handle anything regardless of who designed it. Americans aren't making exciting motorcycles for me these days (Harley... zzzz....), and nothing touches the R1200GSw, so a German vehicle it will be.

The people running around making big noises about Buying American are generally the American manufacturing base. It's an ad campaign more than a statement of strong nationalism. In practice, nobody blinks if you buy a Toyota, even here in the Detroit area, unless you actually work for an auto company, in which case you're probably buying from whatever company you work for. (Which may be Toyota: http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/research_and_develo...)

IIRC, the vast majority of a Prius (and most other cars - I believe I've heard the same about at least some BMW models) is made by Americans in an American factory.

The Prius isn't assembled in America like many other models - it's still made in Japan [0]. I'm sure there are at least a few American components but it's actually one of the least American Toyota models.

Other Toyota models like the Sienna, Tundra, and Camry are indeed made in the USA.

As for BMW, X3s, X5s, and X6es (even for their own domestic market) are made in South Carolina, but their sedans and coupes are made in a variety of other sites (Germany, South Africa, Mexico, others).

So you're right that many foreign cars are more American than they'd seem, but in the case of the Prius, not so.

0: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130610/OEM01/306109991/mad...

Prius are not made in the US, they are all imported. This may change in the future, as hinted at by Toyota. Source: http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/toyota-prius-to-be-...

Last I checked all of the Prius models are still built in Japan. Toyota has been talking about a US factory on and off for a few years, but I don't think anyone substantial has come of it yet.

Tesla is a status symbol, Prius is not.

They have different goals it would seem, Toyota wants to make fuel efficient cars available to the everyman.

Tesla wants to make the fully electric car cool enough that people will aspire to own one.

Prius is definitely a status symbol. It's a symbol that says "I'm green". That's one of the major reasons it has sold better than other hybrids: it's visibly different. Other hybrids look like gasoline cars and don't work as well at telling the world that the owner is green.

Tesla is a symbol that says both "I'm green" and "I have money".

Freakonomics did an episode on how the Prius is a status symbol, called "Hey Baby, is that a Prius You're Driving?".[1]

[1] http://freakonomics.com/2011/07/07/hey-baby-is-that-a-prius-...

Yuppie Prius buyers got tired of slumming. With a Tesla, they can be self-satisfied and ego-satisfied at the same time.

I don't see Prius and Tesla as comparable products. The Prius is a low-performance econobox but it does have unlimited range due to being a hybrid and is practical for most everyday transportation needs. The Tesla is a high performance, expensive, limited-range specialty vehicle, impractical for many uses.

They aren't comparable products, that is sort of the point.

The idea is that until Tesla shipped the model S, there was a "gap" in the market offerings, but the closest thing to that gap was the Prius. So people bought Prius, but as soon as a better (for them) option was available they jumped ship.

In a much larger and more destructive way, this is what happened to RIM. The blackberry had many users who, given the option, actually wanted something else in a smartphone and happily left RIM for alternatives as soon as they existed.

There is an important lesson in this for all businesses. It is dangerous to assume a customer is "yours" if the real issue is that the market isn't meeting their needs very well. In this case someone else can acquire a huge number of "your" customers in a very short time.... Of course the real problem there isn't that everyone looked at the (roughly iphone shaped) hole in the market and said to themselves "eh, that won't really be a problem"; the real problem is that this existed in a blind spot, or its practicality was underestimated.

On paper, they're not at all, but car buyers rarely buy after sitting down with a piece of paper and boxing out their options. The one key area of overlap is in the image portrayed by Prius and Model S ownership.

The study is pretty old (2004, I think), but J.D. Power found that the average income of a hybrid buyer was $100k/year versus $85k/year for the general market. They also found that 42% of hybrid owners make more than $100k per year. This means that a lot of Prius buyers have the means to own a Model S.

The context in which a Tesla Model S gets cross-shopped against a Prius is in that both cars showcase the owners commitment to being "green". While it's a sub-segment of a segment, it's still a real comparison that happens all the time.

100k a year doesn't put you even close to the comfortable range for buying a Model S.

That depends on where you live. Where I live, it's plenty.

Why isn't there a Lexus version of the Prius yet? If people are buying someone else's car for $70k instead of yours for $30k then you need to make your car just a little bigger with a larger screen and sone nice wood trim PRONTO!

The CT200h has been on the market for several years now. It's a nice car. But, it still isn't a Tesla. It is literally a short-wheelbase Prius with a slightly upscale interior. And is priced accordingly (mid-$30k to the Prius' upper-$20k).

Lexus also offers the RX SUV in hybrid. Probably one of the most popular vehicles in the DC area. We have the gas version. Very nice. But, not a performance vehicle.

They have CT 200h, which is basically a rebadged Prius. Pretty common around SF at least.

I guess I had heard of the CT 200h, but it doesn't look green. Half of the point is to drive something that looks like you shop at Whole Foods, and the 200h just looks like a nice sporty hatch back.

If only I could drive long distances (300+ miles) in a Tesla.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

There may be some people who go on road trips looking for a reason to spend longer at the rest stop, but I am not one of them. I would get an electric car except I don't want my 8 hour drive to see the folks a second longer than it has to be.

When my coworkers said this 5 years ago, I asked this question: Would you drive your beater truck that you use for hauling mulch, lumber and the like every single day to work instead of the sedan you drive now? Different vehicles have different roles. Someone who can afford a $100k car can afford to rent, fly or take a train to cover the long distances. At the present prices the Model S isn't suitable for most middle class Americans. But, as the cost of the car goes down, the range of the car goes up, and the charge time goes down, it'll make more sense in the future for a middle class family to consider a Tesla or comparable electric car.

Good point. What I am actually more likely to do is replace my pickup with an electric version when there is a good option available. I only really need one gas car, and the truck would be a good candidate for going full electric. My next vehicle will probably be an electric truck with a roughly 100 mile range. I may have to wait a few years for a good option in my price range though.

I'm watching for Tesla to produce a car that I can take to the ski slopes without worry. The improvements in electric cars and infrastructure (I'm seeing more and more charging stations pop up) have been great, so I'm hoping that I can go full electric within the next decade.

If you live in Oregon, you can now take your EV to Mount Hood and charge it while you ski: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/OIPP/pages/inn_ev-charging.as...

Granted, it's not a supercharger, but considering that something like 25 to 30 miles of your trip home consist of un-interrupted descent (i.e. regenerative descent down a mountain), it's not too bad.

Sadly, not in Oregon. Seeing chargers (even slow ones) pop up at the slopes I frequent would probably be what it took to get me to pull the trigger.

And http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Well, how often do you do that?

If your job involves lots of traveling, electric cars are probably not an option yet. Instead, get something with a large gas tank.

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