Show HN: My Desk Chair
people.csail.mit.edu
people.csail.mit.edu
At my last dentist appointment I was thinking about how comfortable the chair was and wondering whether you could set up a workstation with one (perhaps with totally separated right and left hand keyboards so your arms rest at your sides?) To make it work, I think you'd need monitors on like boom arms essentially suspended above you. Anyone tried something like this?
Caption that went with the photo:
> Engineering manager Scott Goodson reclines in the reclining workstation he built at Facebook HQ.
From: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/03/facebook-paper/
Edit: Added caption.
Big problem though: it rotates its full height to the horizontal so you have to have it practically in the middle of an area so it can lean back and not hit the wall.
Wouldn't this give you perfect posture? It forces your back, neck and head to be straight. You can't lean forward because gravity forces your head into position. The above chair most likely offers some similar benefits since it's reclined so far back.
It felt great at first, but there was two major problems for me:
- with the laptop desk I had to slide under it each time I wanted to use the computer and grab the external keyboard, which isn't instantaneous like getting up/sitting down.
- I was waaaayyyy too sleepy lying on my bed. Had 2 minutes micro-naps all the time.
Right now I still often program in my bed, but with the screen vertical and at eyes height on the laptop desk, and my back resting against a bean-bag chair. It's much more comfortable than a standard desk-chair combination, I recommend people try it. I avoid the use of a mouse, however, and my laptop is configured to be very keyboard-friendly, so there's also that to be taken into account. Using a mouse isn't impossible, but I'm much more performant without one.
This doesn't strike me as quite like the dentist chair experience where you're lying back almost flat.
The latest Ruby Rogues podcast discussed a new "Ergodox" split ergonomic keyboard with open hardware. You can build them yourself and customize them.
The discussion is at 1:08:30 in Episode 147 (March 12, 2014) at http://rubyrogues.com/
Another ergodoxer ordered his own parts and they weren't much more than massdrop
I would quite like that feature to help me cope with some conference calls. It could even be automated - if I haven't said anything in 10 minutes kick the chair back...
And yes, I'm looking for a new job.
Sent from my standing desk, obviously.
It was kind of comfortable, but it was from the 70s (and was a terrible shade of mint green) so it wasn't super ergonomic. It was fun to ride up and down on, though.
The rift basically surrounds you in a digital environment, and a few people have already started to show off desktop environments that work in VR. Working at your computer in VR means a few major benefits:
-Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.
-Your workspace is no longer limited to several constrained rectangles in front of you - you pay for a single display device and get a workspace that literally surrounds you.
-You are no longer required to sit upright staring forward, something we have generally acknowledged isn't good for you. Some people spend more money on a nice chair than the cost of an Oculus Rift just to save their back. Not needing to stare forward to view monitors means you can work in any orientation, such as a comfortable reclined position. The staple of starship captains and movie hackers, the reclined "dentist" style chair is generally represented in movies as the way people would sit if they had sufficient resources, such as their own hollywood set building team.
-Your workspace is 3D, but not gimmick 3D monitor style - actual immersive 3D, so your applications could take advantage of this for more contextual information and improved workflow.
-You have total privacy - no one can see what you are working on in VR, so no one can look over your shoulder. That is until they make virtual coworking spaces. Which will happen.
-Your workspace can be flying through the cosmos, on a beach in Aruba, on a NASCAR track, or anywhere else you find interesting. You could be immersed in front row seats of a live tennis match while you work on your TPS reports. You could work on new VR applications inside of your new VR applications, for the ultimate inception "yo dawg" moment.
Cons: We will become like the people in WALLE.
But... will we? I work from home. I have a standard desktop and 3 monitors. I wake up, walk to the kitchen, make breakfast, then walk to the office to work. Google shopping Express delivers my groceries. Amazon delivers most of my other goods. If I had a self driving car I wouldn't even need to participate in my own transportation when it was needed. What does this mean? It means the future is already on it's way to becoming so convenient that a nearly 100% sedentary lifestyle is entirely possible even for first world people who maintain full employment. For people like me, a dentist chair and virtual reality workstation will not make me any more sedentary - I took 300 steps the other day. I can't really hit much lower of a limit on that.
All this means is that I need to take control of my own exercise routine. I need to force myself to work out, as my daily life does not provide sufficient exercise as is. People who do not do this will become fat, like those in WALLE. But being fat is clearly regarded as unhealthy, and our society is becoming aware of the dangers of unchecked obesity. As we get a handle on appropriate health care in the first world, we will need to encourage people to work out.
For now, I ride a bike, but if I had a self driving car that could take me to the gym while I worked on email, perhaps I'd get out and socialize more.
Rant/Aside: People are pretty dismissive of some of the amazing new tech coming out. Amazon wants to totally eliminate the cost of human labor for delivering goods by using drones, and people just say "but yeah Skynet haha. It's dumb anyway". Virtual reality is actually happening and it's a revolutionary new kind of display device that I know will change the world, and people say "but yeah the virtual boy sucked. this is just more hype, VR will never happen, or it doesn't matter." Robotics in general can change the nature of how we consume things by eliminating all human costs. Robots have fixed costs that can be amortized down to nearly zero for incremental labor, something that is not possible for human workers. We should embrace the technology of the future and figure out how it can be used to do positive things, rather than dismiss it for it's capability to do bad. Skynet jokes are old hat. Lets talk about how much better we can make the future.
Another note: Virtual reality and telepresence can eliminate the "AI problem" for robots - that is, we have been able to make robots that can do neat stuff for a long time, but giving them any intelligence has been a so far intractable problem. A remote human operator could control a robot worker with much more precision than our current AI technology, transporting human intelligence into a robot and eliminating the need for comprehensive AI. VR enables 1:1 viewing of remote 3D environments, something a monitor does not provide. This will lead to both good and bad new technology, but as they say - you take the good with the bad.
As far as the weight, it's not any heavier than a pair of beats headphones, or the gaming headphones I already wear at my desk. It's mostly a display, some lenses, and a bunch of empty space - it's not too heavy. Plus you have the benefit of a more comfortable sitting position.
Humans are masters at adaptation. I guess we should just wait and see.
Yes, I suppose it's easy to eliminate any unsolved problem if you simply give up on it.
PS Maybe take it easy on the Adderall.
The "AI problem" is the fact that robots don't have many applications until we have AI. The problem can be eliminated by making the hardware useful even without AI. This does not mean people will stop working on AI, just that robotics hardware development can be decoupled from AI development. More robots out there will make it even easier to develop AI for robotic platforms.
Your Adderall comment seems to be a way of poking fun at me, and if so does not seem to contribute to this discussion. I thought I contributed something thoughtful to HN. Would you prefer I just make snarky comments? I left Slashdot years ago so I could find people who make an effort to think and communicate - lets do that here.
Your workstation is no longer defined by the physical space it resides in, so it can go with you wherever you want, such as on the train, in your self-driving car, etc.
But I agree that it sounds like a great idea having a virtual half-sphere surrounding you and it would certainly be a relief for the neck at least.
I have used one. I understand that the current dev kit isn't high res, doesn't have translational tracking, and generally isn't comfortable for long term use. If you hadn't stopped reading halfway through the first sentence you would have seen that I said "the Oculus rift or some incarnation of VR", which was an acknowledgement that the Oculus rift may not be ideal for this when the consumer version is released, but I believe some incarnation of VR will be.
Saying it won't work because you've tried the hurriedly prepared low res dev kit is like saying smart phones will never take off because your QVGA windows mobile 5 phone is too low res for web browsing. Technology evolves if people find it compelling enough to buy it. Every honest reviewer I have read says the Oculus rift is an amazing experience unlike anything we've ever been able to experience. I have no doubt that the 1080p versions they are demoing now will give way to 4k versions in a few years (if not sooner), and that eventually working in a rift will be as comfortable as can be.
Tech is never fixed in stone.
http://youtu.be/bHLR3faI7lU?t=12s
I still think of that setup years after having seen the movie.
I also haven't seen the monitor mounts discrete from built-in seating, though it doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility. One could realistically place a large A-frame styled wooden structure over a La-Z-Boy chair and mount generic monitor arms onto it via clip or screw.
So, the main challenges are just carpentry and cable management.
The downside is that it takes up more space, but it can be quite comfortable.
[0]: http://www.gizmag.com/emperor-1510-workstation-mwe/21412/
[1]: http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2008/06/13/the-emperor-the-ultim...
I have an office with only a standing desk but I'll come in and sit by the table, or on the recliner, or even lie on the floor.
The hardest part was getting myself trained to be just as productive on one monitor.
My anecdotal evidence is I feel this has been better than doing X day-after-day year-after-year.
Sold my 6 monitor PC setup for a single MBPR. That combined with an external trackpad just takes a swipe or two to get to the screen I want.
...but this is pretty cool too.
My wife/business partner also uses one and (begrudgingly) convinced me to ditch my $300+ leather office chair for one.
I'm sold. It's the best option short of sitting on just the ball part (which engages more balance muscles)
The best part is your can't "slump" into the chair if you're feeling tired. The best option at that point it to get up and do something else as opposed to fighting your body and relying on a Lazy-Boy approach.
What I like especially is that when listening to music, or when you're feeling energetic you (subconsciously at times) tend to bounce and roll your butt around on the ball which exercises even more muscles in your back/lower body.
I used to sit on a normal desk chair but it felt wrong. I can sit here for longer without issue, though I still get up every half hour. As long as I ensure my head is touching the back of the chair as well as the bottom of my back (i.e., no hunch), my spine is easily straight and I have absolutely no back problems after working for a long time, which happens on occasion, believe it or not.
1. Some form of a foot rest
2. The monitor raised to the next height
3. A bluetooth keyboard so my wrists can rest on my lap
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044DHU0M/ref=wms_ohs_prod...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10557283/CAM00161.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10557283/CAM00164.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10557283/CAM00165.jpg
They rest on the arm rest of the chair.
This chair is better than the office chairs I've had in previous lives. I think for me the ideal for long periods of work would be a deeper incline but since I get up every half hour or so anyway, it would be a PITA to get up and down.
I'm not perfectly comfortable but I'm more comfortable than is typical.
The scorpion looking thing (http://greenstylo.blogspot.com/2013/08/emperor-1510-workstat...) is probably the ultimate one for me though. That would be pretty awesome.
Based on my own experience with standing desks and high-end office chairs (the most recent being a Herman Miller Embody, which I ended up selling), I've concluded that I need an office setup that allows me to move throughout the day and not just stand or sit nearly motionless for most of the day.
After trying out all the chairs at my local office furniture stores (yet again) and enjoying a Swopper stool that one of the stores had in their showroom, I'm now planning to order a Swopper Air. The Swopper is the most comfortable active seating solution that I've tried (but I haven't spent hours sitting on it yet).
I hope the Swopper Air works out for me. If not, I'll finally pull the trigger on a LifeSpan TR5000-DT3 treadmill for my standing desk.
Before that I had drafting stool. Sometimes made my ass fall asleep, which was my reminder to move around.
Followup: Just googled "Swopper Air". $699. Bam. My bar stool cost $40.
The Embody is just the best :-) People can't believe that a chair could make such a huge difference, but it really does.
i've iterated through an array of desk lamps, but realized the biggest problem is the lack of reflections from walls/ceilings.
so the shield is a big light reflector --- just foam posterboard taped together and hung from a 5-iron and some rope.
the $5 ikea lamps provide nice warm light, and the angular shield makes it feel like you're on a photo shoot with ambient light and minimal self-occluding shadows.
Parts of it, anyway. My desk was next to one of those huge glass walls facing Kiva. We also got reflections from the mirror-like metal paneling on the opposite side of the tower.
Similarly there are methods for standing, lying etc.
I was thinking of going one step further and suspending my monitor over my face - at a reasonable distance of course :)
monitor hacks are definitely the next step, i'd prefer them higher and slightly angled downwards
I tend to stand behind the desk during the day and recline on the bed in the evenings. I do find reclining with the suspended monitor is very comfortable (sometimes i'll lie almost horizontal with the monitor directly above me) but I think I'd struggle to do a full days work like that.
The answer appears to be "yes:" I'm typing on one right now, and the large separation between the key wells makes for a MUCH better experience.
I haven't used a Tek and so can't speak directly to it, but I"m guessing that the key well separation is the Kinesis advantage.
(I wrote more about it here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on...).
1. I have a (really) long body and (freakishly IMO) short legs (as in my wife is 6" shorter than me but still has longer legs). If my arms were extended down to the arm rests for typing, fuggedaboutit, I'd be crippled in a week.
2. Due to uncorrectable vision issues, I have a 30" monitor roughly 1' from my face. I would barely be able to read text on the monitor setup you have.
3. Can't use a mouse, can't use a kinesis keyboard sadly.
4. Haven't been able to use laptops effectively for 15+ years. Ironically, tablets are no problem. Go figure that one out.
That said, we seem to share a passion for hoarding gadgets.
Of course you have to do some coding at home, but without a desk it is not so convenient especially that my Linux box is a desktop.
So I ended up having a TV screen instead of a monitor, couch instead of an office chair and having a keyboard on my laps with no desk at all. Kinesis Advantage seems to be specifically designed to be used in this way. It is very convenient and feels ergonomic.
I'm a bit annoyed by the TV which is a bit too far and I have to reduce the resolution for easier reading.
It is fun to see somebody else coding in a similar way.
i keep a pillow around that i sometimes place behind my head to zero-out any neck strain
I often sit at my desk exactly how you are not supposed to: slouched with feet up on the desk...but b/c my core is strong, it doesn't ever phase me. I think most people will find if they just get in shape, a lot of these desk fads will just go away for them.
I liked the avocado best.
Here are my suggestions for the rest of your setup:
1. Monitor arms. That will allow you to move you monitors around easily. I use one from 3m. 2. Deeper desk. I use an old kitchen table that is really just a thick 4x8 sheet of plywood.
What we need is a swing away arm similar to the nav console in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
The only problem tends to be that you have to keep the keyboard and mouse separate from the monitor arm so that your screens don't shake.
Seems to me that the recent Microsoft keyboards are kind of mushy. I use an Apple wireless keyboard at work. It has a relatively light touch, and is comfortable on my lap. At home, I'm breaking in a tenkeyless keyboard with Cherry MX Brown switches. There's something satisfying about banging away on it. I bet the Blue switches would be even better, but I was afraid they'd make too much of a racket.
I've gotten a bit of WASD claw from first-person shooters, gorilla arm from poor mousing form, and gamer thumb from too much Xbox. Those injuries (if I can even call them that) didn't prompt me to search for a new keyboard or an ergonomic game controller. I just backed off a bit on the offending activity.
occasionally i slide the monitors forward or backward if my eyes feel strained
it's just some foam posterboard tapes together, but it does a good job of reflecting light from many angles, so if you are reading/writing on the desk, you don't get shadows from your head/arms
i highly recommend those $5 ikea lamps too, they give off nice warm light
Step 2) Work anywhere you want.
Just sit, rest your arms, control the display with the trackballs and when you need to code, slide the keyboard in and type furiously without moving your head from its resting position, like looking to the ceiling.
If you place a laptop on your legs, the neck will suffer after some time.
I know, I am a lazy-boy surfer.