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Calling everyone who needs peace and quiet to concentrate a petulant teenager doesn't win an argument.

Walk into any open plan office with developers in it, they will all have headphones in. You think they want to listen to music all day? 10s of thousands of dollars in lost productivity disappearing down the drain right in front of your nose but you're too blind to see.

I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working, there is a tiny bit of chatter now and then but nothing distracting. The feeling of other people working seems to affect my own productivity positively (no, the irony of me being on HN is not lost on me. I'm taking a five minute break).

But then, I also like to work in cafés. In fact, when I work from home I will sometimes open www.rainycafe.com to "simulate" that feeling. As long as nobody is speaking really loud or addressing me directly, it doesn't disturb me.

It will only take one sales person to shatter that.

If everyone is being quiet creative it's fine.

Introduce a person constantly on the phone and it's not.

The other ones, and god I hate them, are the pacing round the office while on a mobile. Only topped by pacing round the office on a mobile who's route goes behind your chair. The most distracting thing in the world to me.

Sorry, but I can top that. And this has happened to me. Multiple times (by the same offender).

A manager that uses her speakerphone to call someone else.

Two cubes over.

Needless to say, I don't work there anymore.

I think cubes are actually worse than open plan; in a cube you can't see that someone is working intently three feet away, and you don't see their death glare.

I once worked in a small dev room, no door, on a mezannine above a recruitment agency. 16 people whose job it was to be on the phone all day. And they had the radio on.

My three month review ended when I walked out after being criticised for wearing headphones all day.

This is exactly the issue I have in my current open floor plan. Developers are intermixed with project managers and business analysts and anyone else who happens to occupy the empty desk at the end of the row.

However, the worst distraction I have is actually another developer whose voice carries like buckshot out at 12 gauge. He's been asked to keep it down but it seems like he is physically incapable of understanding how loud he talks.

Or just team issues. I recall one friend telling me how open spaces became strategic games.

  - You don't wanna be next to this employee (too lazy, friction)
  - Being too close to a [bad] manager
  - Being moved was a very cheap lever toward fear of inflicted unspoken sanctions

I once spent a summer writing software in a room full of telephone order takers. My requests for a quieter office were rebuffed and only granted when I offered to quit.

I took the office, finished the software, and quit.

How many people are on that floor?

Ditto here. I enjoy open environments, I derive energy from other people working around me.

There are ~30 people on the floor around me right now. There's a quiet conversation happening somewhere, which I didn't notice until I checked just now. Otherwise it's quiet and everyone is working. I can see two pairs of headphones in the bunch.

The frustrating thing about this particular issue is the vehemence of the "pro private office" side - people like mattmanser or mgkimsal routinely talk past people like myself, and pretend we don't exist. When we express our satisfaction with open arrangements we're talked down to, accused of shilling, and otherwise treated like idiots who are too stupid to have valid opinions on something that is a core part of our daily lives. Every single argument boils down to "there's simply no way you've had a positive experience, your experience was actually negative but you're too dumb to know it". There is no concept that some people might actually legitimately like the arrangement.

What works for us might not work for you. This isn't a value judgment upon you or anyone. People are different, shocking, I know. No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat.

I agree. This is a largely a subjective question. What you like, what makes you productive and what you feel makes you productive all play a part and are all pretty subjective.

I think people feel like because it's work related it is and must be objective. Measurable and provably better for all involved. It gets very transparent when you hear the reasoning behind very senior people's large expensive offices. There's always some pseudo rational justification.

I'm not saying that environment doesn't affect productivity. I'm saying I don't think that's what is enflaming passions. I see office environments as a form of consumption. Our standards for homes and cars and phones have gone up. Why not office chairs and square footage? Thinking of it that way naturally lends to subjectivity. What you like is supposed to be subjective.

I'm not talking past you, your crowd generally talk past me with "it's fine - works for me - just wear headphones - actually it's a benefit", etc.

In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work. Was it causal? Probably not, but it more proves the point that it's harder to self-assess beyond emotional state (which, really, IS a component of work life - I get that).

But what also happens with these religious wars is that the few anecdotes of "hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone.

You want open with other people - that should be allowed. You want an office with a door to shut to work? That should be allowed too. You want to switch between the two - that should be allowed and it EXTREMELY RARE.

Essentially, without loud 'anti' open office plan voices, the 'hey, this is cheaper' crowd gets its way. And when they can find a small percentage of people who do work well in that environment, it's justification-icing on the decision cake.

You're paying a team of people... say, $500k per year - spend the extra few percent and get an office that can accommodate multiple working styles to have the best possible places for all types of people to work. The larger world tends to default to the benefit of extroverts, and 'open plan offices' is one more 'default' that needs to be challenged, especially for many knowledge workers.

In every place I've been with open plans or open cube farms - management NEVER sat there - always had private offices. There's an acknowledgement that it's useful for some type of work, and you're not it. Incredibly divisive attitude for a 'team' to have to put up with. And... for every one example of "but... famous person X sits in an open plan with the team" there are hundreds who don't - it's not the norm.

"No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat."

MOST companies are because it saves a few bucks. The costs may be non trivial, but the cost compared the salaries, benefits and lost productivity generally are trivial.

> "In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work."

See the part of my original post: "Every single argument boils down to "there's simply no way you've had a positive experience, your experience was actually negative but you're too dumb to know it""

You're doing it right now. I'm not prescribing open-plan offices on you, so don't prescribe yours onto me. Furthermore, this blind assertion "people who like open plan are actually more productive in private offices" has a gigantic "citation needed" on it. It is a universal assertion every time it comes up, yet is NEVER substantiated.

> ""hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone."

Except no one here is doing this. You're setting up a straw man and declaring gleeful victory knocking down a stance no one in this thread has advocated.

Look at what others are saying:

"I understand why open floorplans don't work for some people but I personally enjoy working in one..."

"Open floorplans are fine so long as there's an alternative option available."

"We had private rooms too, and many engineers preferred working in quiet, but I'm glad it wasn't all private offices."

No one here is prescribing open floor plans on you, but you have spent many replies in this thread behaving as if they are, and prescribing private offices onto them by insisting that you know their productivity better than they do.

You have spent this entire thread accusing people of forcing their preferences onto you, but it would appear in actuality it's the reverse.

"Except no one here is doing this. "

They do it at companies I've worked at.

Some of those comments weren't in place when I originally commented.

Yes, not everyone here is advocating that. It's one of the few hot-button issues for me, and it still feels like 'moderate' tones get used to justify herding people in to open plans to save a few bucks.

I'm not accusing people in this thread of doing that - I'm saying it happens a lot on the outside, and the voices of moderation - the types expressed in this thread - get used by non-programmers to justify open plans. Perhaps I didn't clarify that, or perhaps it's a distinction without a difference.

Separate reply from before:

"I derive energy from other people working around me."

That's great and all, but what effect does it have on the others around you. It's a rather self-centered view (almost by definition!) but.. "I derive... around me". It may be extremely draining on the people around you, but if it's OK because you get something from it, that makes it fine?

I'm projecting here, certainly, but the whole statement about what works for you bothers me. I've seen more teams be under-productive in open floor plans compared to similar teams that have the options of shared and private workspaces. Is the floor plan the only factor? Probably not, but it's certainly one that was very noticeable. Perhaps it's just symptomatic of something larger?

Please excuse the bluntness that follows - I am genuinely frustrated by your attitude. This is my final reply with you on this matter, because frankly your behavior doesn't deserve any more time, and this is putting a bigger dent in my productivity today than any office environment-related concerns.

In this thread you have accused myself, and others, of prescribing our preferences to you. We have not, in fact you have done the reverse to us.

In this thread you have accused myself, and others, of being selfish when in fact we advocate for people to work in any environment that best suits them.

In this thread you have insisted that you know our (none of whom you've ever met) productivity better than we do ourselves.

In this thread you have presumed that we work in environments where we are disrespectful of our peers. Speaking only for myself, that cannot be further from the truth. Around here we have discussed candidly what works for people and what does not, offer alternatives to people who do not want open environments, and we continue to encourage people to speak up on any issues relating to the work environment, whether it's productivity-related or simply related to their enjoyment (believe it or not, not all open-plan-preferring people work best in just any open-plan setup). We are fully cognizant that different people work better in different environments, and we offer that freedom to everyone.

You have falsely accused many of us the same disrespect you have shown us. You have falsely accused us of projecting and prescribing, when the only one doing the projecting and prescribing is you.

You are looking for a Big Bad Guy so hard it borders on the absurd. You have approached anyone here even slightly pro-open-plan with hostility and condescension when no attitude has been shown to you.

We get it, you've had bad experiences at previous companies re: open-plan. Don't take it out on us. Neither myself nor anyone who has commented here is responsible for your past experiences, and none of us take anything close to the stance you have previously experienced. So don't treat us like it.

I acknowledged I'm likely projecting some of this. That you or others took some of this personally is odd - I thought I was pretty clear in indicating that these were my own experiences. Outside of that, apologies for the one dig at you specifically about your 'deriving energy' comment - my reply was worded correctly, and certainly came across differently than I intended.

Agreed on dropping this - not intending to cause offense - I also suspect that if this was a face to face conversation we'd have agreed more than disagreed (as has happened when this has come up at user group meetings in the area now and then).

> I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working ...

Clearly not everybody is working - someone posting comments to HN...

I'm in a coworking space right now and I'm one of the only one I can see with headphones on all day. And I wear them by choice, I really love to work with music, not because I want to avoid the noise around me

woah, cool down! I didn't call anyone a petulant teenager, not even teenagers. Your own space that you control is nicer and I'm arguing that people want it mostly because it's nicer. Productivity often overlaps with privacy and it may in this case, but I don't think people are as passionate about productivity boosting choices when they don't overlap with pleasantness.

BTW, There is nothing wrong with wanting a nicer work environment.

I like getting loads of work done. I like getting into the zone. You feel good afterwards. I so rarely get into the zone at work I can often count the times in the last month on a hand. And usually it'll be after most people left.

You're putting words into people's mouth that aren't true (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!). Yes privacy is good, but mostly we'd just like to be able to get on with work without constant interruptions.

If you'd have claimed all CEOs are inherently paranoid and don't trust their workers to work in private offices you'd have been as wrong.

> (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!)

For what it's worth, I read their comment as meaning that some things we desire are the same throughout our lifetimes. In the same way that teenagers want to decorate their rooms to reflect themselves, as adults we have the same drives (though maybe with fewer posters of slightly-shameful bands).

I don't see how you read petulant teenager from what I wrote.

>> We want our own space. We want to control our environment. Same thing every 14 year old wants. We spend half our lives at work and we want a pleasant office for the same reason we want a pleasant home. More space is more pleasant.

I think you're confusing achieving optimal productivity with achieving decent productivity. Sometimes even the latter is a depressing struggle.

PSA - As an alternative to headphones I came up with "stealth" earplugs. Take regular memory-foam earplugs, cut them down so the outer edge is flush with your ear hole, and color the outside edge black with a sharpie. The cut out the background noise but let enough sound through that you can have a normal conversation with someone next to you. Sometimes I wear them all day.

We're open plan. Fewer than half of us are wearing headphones at any given time. I wear them when I want to listen to music, never any other time.

It's possible you may have misunderstood or misinterpreted posters here. There is no inconsistency in preferring a more pleasant workspace, while also pointing out to the employers that it makes software people more productive. One proposition does not make the other false or dishonest.

In fact, most tech professionals are ethical people who enjoy their work and prefer to be more productive. Posters here have been hoping, I think, to point out to employers that a cost savings on workspace, walls etc. may actually cost more in productivity, turnover, inefficiency.

There may be some dishonesty in management claims that open plans are beneficial for anything other than the short-term budget. Managers may have to make such decisions to produce numbers their bosses are demanding, because of the way corporations work. However, there is no apparent basis for the implication of some conflict between employee comfort and work-product benefit to the employer.

I would so give up a part of my salary if I could:

1. Have some peace and quiet and do my job

2. After getting done with however much work I have I can leave early

It would be about the same amount of work done, but I would save myself so much time. But of course companies want me to be a factory worker with people looking over my shoulder to make sure I'm actually working and forcing me to work 8 hours no matter what. This is why I am no longer a software engineer.

What are you doing now?

Online poker

> ... forcing me to work 8 hours no matter what. This is why I am no longer a software engineer.

The problem wasn't that you were a software engineer. The problem was the companies you were working for.

I usually find this distinguished by whether a company is a software company or a non-software company that requires software by extension (i.e. IT/Big Co).

Stop working for IT companies and go work for a software company. You'll get exactly what you are asking for -- peace and quiet, flexibility, and giving up part of your salary.

> I usually find this distinguished by whether a company is a software company or a non-software company that requires software by extension (i.e. IT/Big Co).

It also happens at any company that bills government contracts, because they have to submit time cards with actual hours worked in order to get paid. You also need to keep a daily timecard.

Sure, but it's really hard to find a company that just wants me to be there for 4-5 hours and that's it as a full time job.

> open floor plans are cheaper and more convenient. They take less space per person.

Cubicle walls aren't that expensive. You can put them around small teams. What is expensive are unproductive engineers that cost you $10,000 a month each. In comparison I bet those walls and a little bit more space are worth it.

This is why we invented cubicles. Middle ground between cost/personal area/flexibility.

The only problem with cubicles is when you get the half-height wall ones. Then literally you have almost all the same problem as open-floor while literally costing more money and reducing flexibility.

Except cubicles feel like tools of oppression.

But happier employees are more productive employees, so this is a false dichotomy. I wonder if it would be possible to sell management on non-open floorplans by making a convincing case that people will get enough more work done to pay for the extra costs of open offices.

I am pretty sure a dormitory is the exact opposite of an open floor plan, in most dorms people have their own space that they may share with someone and then common spaces that everyone shares. Contrast to open floor plan where every space is a common area.

I was kind of imagining a military or hostel dorm like this: http://www.yosemitebug.com/images/lodging/CoedGroupHostelDor...

One central open bathroom area, no other bathrooms -- the pixar way.