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Comment by tomp | Hacker News Reader

Equivalently, taken to its logical conclusion, it results in more people writing better code.

Would you intentionally introduce language features that break functionality for people who don't follow style guidelines? I certainly hope not.

The real problem with your argument is that the poorly-styled code of people who haven't learned better yet is in production. This isn't a theoretical exercise. This is a tool used in industry, and "teaching people to style their code better" is not a valid excuse for costing industrial users of the language money.

Further, Python markets itself as a beginner-friendly language. Your attitude is the exact opposite of beginner-friendly.

beginner-friendly doesn't mean stupid-friendly. And I am in favor of "teaching people to style their code better" in the language even if in this case, it's not about style but the meaning of midnight. semantic != style. Also, language must also help/structure/offer rails for thinking, create et cetera.

Industry must bend before truth, not bend truth over itself...

We have mostly the same principles but have come to different conclusions. The semantics of midnight are indeed what is important here, but midnight does not qualify as a zero. Zero implies identity for some addition, and there is no addition for which midnight is the identity. This is because midnight does not even support addition: you have to use timedeltas if you want to add times. Timedelta 0, then, is the proper zero, and should semantically be falsy in languages where zeros are falsy. Midnight, on the other hand, should not be. (The entire notion of falsiness is terrible and should crawl off somewhere and die, but that's beside the point.)

Agreed, midnight is not False.

>Would you intentionally introduce language features that break functionality for people who don't follow style guidelines?

Uhm maybe I'm confused but isn't that the whole design philosophy behind python? It makes bad indentation a syntax error!

>It makes bad indentation a syntax error!

No, its syntax for determining block structure is indentation. The designers didn't say "Hey lets complain about bad indentation" they said "Hey, people should be indenting their code properly anyway, so why not make that the syntax?"

Also, they didn't introduce it to an existing project, it was there from the beginning (AFAIK).

    if var:
        ...

is better code (for my value of better, which is subjective) than:

    if var is not None:
        ...

By what criteria have you decided that?

quicker to scan-read ("code will be read many more times than it is written or modified", being the relevant axiom)

Reading code is a purposeful activity, though; namely, to understand what the code does. The speed with which that can be done is relevant in the margins from a productivity standpoint, but to build an argument for code structure around it strikes me as missing the point of the "axiom" you quote.

In my opinion, the "explicit is better than implicit" mantra of Python (which I find very sensible) should immediately imply preference for the second, even in cases where the first is almost certainly not going to cause problems.

Testing for "not None" also immediately tells other devs at least something about what's going on. Example: If var is an argument to a function and you see "if var," really understanding what's going on means looking at all invocations of that function to see what's being passed in.

Further, in that scenario, it's possible that different types are being passed for that argument. While "if var" could make this work where "if var is not None" would break functionality, in my opinion, it should break. Without getting into arguments about static typing, "truthiness" allows both sloppy code and the accidental introduction of bugs that might otherwise be caught during development due to faulty logic from vague conditional checks.

It's a rule of thumb, not a mantra.

I suppose the hilarious way to argue it would be to say that there is an implicit "all other things being equal" in front of each of those.

Call it what you want; I'm not arguing it to be pedantic, I think it's a very practical approach. But if you prefer:

All other things being equal, I see no reason to write code that needlessly introduces potential bugs and maintainability issues by ignoring the rule of thumb that explicit trumps implicit.

It's an old argument. I don't have real strong feelings about it. I think there is enough code doing one or the other out there that the end result is to understand well the ramifications of both, so it ends up a matter of taste.

The documentation is pretty clear about it:

http://docs.python.org/release/3.3.4/library/stdtypes.html#t...

Which leads to this:

    >>> a=object()
    >>> bool(a)
    True
    >>>

So since we need to be explicit, it should be:

  if var in (None, 0, "", [], {}, ...):
    pass

something like that?

In general, most of those false-y values make sense. Midnight being a false-y value does not make sense. This seems to be a case of "we represent midnight as zero internally, and zero is false-y, so midnight should be false-y." This logic does not make sense to me. If they represented noon as 0 instead, should that evaluate to false, just because?

If you need to use a test like that, you've already gone too far down the road of lazy "falsey" value usage, and whoever wrote it didn't bother with the idea of sensible defaults or consistent typing/initialization.

I agree that midnight evaluating to false is ridiculous (I wasn't aware of this, thankfully I've never run into it). I'm not sure where you got the idea that I support this, but I don't.

It's functionality that someone went out of their way to create:

    def __bool__(self):
        if self.second or self.microsecond:
            return True
        offset = self.utcoffset() or timedelta(0)
        return timedelta(hours=self.hour, minutes=self.minute) != offset

http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/302c8fdb17e3/Lib/datetime....

Now that I look at the actual code, it makes less sense. It's not just midnight that evaluates to False. It's midnight UTC that evals to False. So if your timezone is PST, then 8AM evals to False. Since most datetime.time() objects are timezone 'dumb' by default, this distinction doesn't matter so much, but I can see this still biting some people hard, even if "Midnight is false-y" made sense.

Edit: Also, to the "explicit is better than implicit" crowd, notice this line (in core libs):

  if self.second or self.microsecond:
      return True

It's not:

  if self.second != 0 or self.microsecond != 0:
      return True

What could be more 'Pythonic' than the Python core libraries?

Edit: s/EST/PST/ ^^;;

Perhaps it started because as time zones were added, they wanted to reflect that 8am_pacific == midnight_utc, assuming there aren't any offsets for daylight savings in effect...

If you shouldn't use non-booleans in an if statement, then why is it allowed? If it's allowed, it should behave in the way that would surprise developers the least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

Once upon a time there was a language called Smalltalk that was the grandfather of dynamically typed languages. Perhaps partially as a consequence of implementing if else as methods on the boolean classes taking block closures to be executed only booleans were allowed(anything else is a missing method). If you wanted to test for null(Nil) you had to say something like

self foo isNil ifTrue: [self defaultFoo]

later some implementations added a method on object to test for nil

self foo ifNil: [self defaultFoo]

if you had to test for nil before testing for a condition it would be a bit ugly.

self foo ifNil: [((self foo) isFooish) ifTrue: [self defaultFoo]]

In ruby which was developed about a bit later perhaps to late to influence pythons bool handling they got rid of this problem by treating either nil or false as Falsey and everything else as truthy.

In python everything is true except:

    None

    False

    zero of any numeric type, for example, 0, 0L, 0.0, 0j.

    any empty sequence, for example, '', (), [].

    any empty mapping, for example, {}.

    instances of user-defined classes, if the class defines a __nonzero__() or __len__() method, when that method returns the integer zero or bool value False. [1]

http://docs.python.org/2/library/stdtypes.html In python 3 __nonzero__ is __bool__ The reason for 0 being a truthy value arguably is arguably due to historical reasons. false used to be 0 and truth used to be 1, when they introduced a bool type they made it be an integer. Some of the important python people(who are much better programmers then me) may disagree(http://stackoverflow.com/a/3175293/259130) but I think it was a ugly stain and should have been removed in python3 along with the whole 0(of any numeric type) being falsey.

The upside to python behaving like this is that in many situations you don't care what kind of falsey value you may have and you can write

if person and person.name: instead of if person != None and person.name != None and person.name != "":

and

if students and "John" in students and students[John"].age and students[John"].friends: print "John has friends" instead of if students != None and "John" in students and students[John"].age != None and len(students[John"].friends) > 0: print "John has friends"

There are downsides to this and people may have a strong personal preference for personal scripts and you can argue that the ruby way or even the smalltalk way is conceptually nicer(and more "explicit") but this is proper pythonic style and generally you should use it in python(maybe not the numerical one except when getting len of a collection)(unless you specifically depend on different code for different falsey values).

I prefer the second one.

Explicit is better than implicit.

The second what?

The second example:

    if var is not None:
        ...

I was making a joke about being explicit versus implicit ;)

If explicit is always better than implicit, why is Python dynamically typed?

Because at the time it was originally written, it seemed impossible to write a statically typed language that was beautiful, or even readable.

This has now proven to be false, and python is starting to add optional type annotations. It's not practical to introduce static typing more quickly - it would break too many existing programs.

So why is it better to have to check for None but not having to check for midnight?

The latter seems a lot less common and surprising.

They do two entirely different things in python. Occasionally you might actually want the functionality of the first statement, but if you write the first statement and expect it to do the same as the second statement, then that is a bug in your code.

You could argue that the python is badly designed in this case and that the two should be equivalent, but that's a different argument.

Not in python.

    if var:
        ...

is better in some situations, but is objectively worse in many others. If you really do want anything that's "falsey" to fall into that conditional, then by all means, use it! Just be aware that `0`, `[]`, `None`, `0.0`, etc will all be treated the same.

However, it's harmful in one of its most common use cases: default values.

For example, let's say you're working with a function that takes an optional argument similar to:

    def foo(x, values=None):
        if values is None:
            values = []

You shouldn't use a mutable default argument for several reasons, so instead you make the default "None" and set it to an empty sequence. The snippet above is the standard idiom.

Let's say a user mistakenly passes "values=0" instead of "values=[0]".

If you had done:

    if not values:
        values = []

Then the code will happily proceed with "values" being an empty list and _silently give incorrect output_ instead of raising an error a couple of lines later.

You can make the (very reasonable) argument that this is all the fault of dynamic typing, and if python was just a staticly typed language, the compiler would catch all of this, but that's beside the point.

Be aware of what you're testing if you choose "if var:" instead of "if var is not None:"

default values is a special case (and one which I consider to be a bug in python, frankly, since it bites everyone who didn't read up on default arguments before the wrote some code - everyone uses [] as a default argument at some point and then spends an amount of time proportional to the complexity of their program debugging the insane behaviour before noticing. My program was quite long and complex, and I am still bitter.)

I didn't argue, and certainly didn't mean to imply, that it is always better, but in the sort of case we're considering in this example, i.e. we expect a valid time value or None, It really is madness to imply a time value of midnight is "empty".

Nice job explaining away one language bug with another.

One of the core tenets of Python is that "explicit is better than implicit". So why is your way better than an explicit check?

That is a rather silly statement since the two do not have the same behavior. So it is not a subjective question: one is right and the other is wrong.

(For certain types, they do have the same behavior. In those cases, the subjective question is fine. But times are not a case where the behavior is the same.)

"Also, beware of writing if x when you really mean if x is not None -- e.g. when testing whether a variable or argument that defaults to None was set to some other value. The other value might have a type (such as a container) that could be false in a boolean context!"

From PEP-8: http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/

No, it doesn't just different mistakes.

If they wanted to make people write better code they would throw an error on coercion from time to bool so that everyone would have to fix the code.

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