Second, it's a quite small branch of libertarianism that doesn't recognise any role for the state (and thus, taxation) at all - and the one they do recognise is mostly concerned with security.
For example, if you ask somebody of any of these various personal philosophies, regardless of what the textbook definition is, to self identify, they'll say "conservative" or "libertarian" and often they'll self-identify as both...and their Facebook feeds will be clogged with endless anti-Obama anti-Government pro-gun patriotic religious posts sprinkled with quotes from the Constitution and reposts from Libertarian Girl, Fox, the NRA their favorite ultra-conservative or libertarian congressperson and then their occupation will be listed as "Department of..." or "<insert Fed Contractor>".
So folks definitely self-group and self-select and self-identify with these labels even if by some strict definition it doesn't make any sense.
And I guess that's what my point is, I run into people like this who've fundamentally constructed an anti-government world view that simply doesn't make any sense internally or externally...and here, in this area, it's shockingly common among civil servants and federal contractors and I find this pattern curious.
It was much later I realized that he had said he was a criminal laywer and therefore here in the UK his main source of income would have been Legal Aid - paid for by the tax payer.
[NB He was really quite staggeringly rude - probably one of the few times I have considered punching someone. Fortunately, even here in Scotland, thumping someone during a wedding lunch is frowned on, you do that at the dance later, where it is practically a tradition].
tl;dr stupid arguments make good causes look stupid.
I think you're seeing hypocrisy here when there is really a lot less in reality.
People who are in favor of a certain outcome have no obligation to act as if that outcome has already come to pass. This is why I don't give liberals a hard time because they are in favor of higher taxes but don't voluntarily pay higher taxes themselves.
First of all, most conservatives/libertarians are in favor of a smaller government, but smaller doesn't mean nonexistent. There are often large swaths of the government that they are in fact in favor of, and defense is one of them. I would be more surprised if these type of people that you're observing worked in places like the EPA, the Department of Education, and other things that the worldview opposes.
But even if… One can't just concede the playing field to the other side. If there is to be an EPA or Department of Education, been all things being equal it's better to have some conservative/libertarian people working there to keep things from getting out of control.
I actually do find it curious, but frustrating. I have a great many friends, who I quite like in normal face-to-face interaction, who I've FB friended, and found I had to unfollow their feeds because in private they turn into rabid ideologues...from every part of the political spectrum. In this case I'm isolating conservative/libertarian folks, but I see similar kinds of things from people in various liberal parts of the spectrum as well...endless huffington post, MSNBC and planned parenthood links or whatever.
> People who are in favor of a certain outcome have no obligation to act as if that outcome has already come to pass.
Yeah that's true in theory. But it can get out of control. It's like attending a rally about having too many strip clubs in your neighborhood, then chilling out after the rally in your local neighborhood strip club.
It's not like there isn't a large, thriving, private, non-government sector in the U.S. that they could be employing their skills at.
> all things being equal it's better to have some conservative/libertarian people working there to keep things from getting out of control
What would concern me is people who fundamentally don't believe their job should exist because it's a waste of resources, simply not doing a good job.
It's a strained analogy, as strip clubs are fundamentally about the thing people who are opposed to them find objectionable - the stripping. Most things government is about these days isn't the thing libertarians or conservatives oppose.
They generally don't oppose that education or the environment is being studied or recommendations are being created - they oppose that the government coerces people to pay for the study and follow the recommendation.
If you're a passionate researcher of things environmental, you probably won't be able to pursue your passion if you cut out government employment - and if you live near DC, most jobs will be "contaminated" by government. Nothing about libertarianism compels you to move to a less government-y place just so you can work a more ideologically pure job.
>Nothing about libertarianism compels you to move to a less government-y place just so you can work a more ideologically pure job.
True, but it does compel you to work in a non-governmental job as much as possible. Or at least be honest about the situation:
"I hate working for the government and all the waste, but I applied to 100 jobs and this is that only one I could get. I'm looking to get out as soon as possible into the private sector."
I'm not fighting for ideological purity, but for ideological honesty. To me at least, it's okay to be a hypocrite or inconsistent, just so long as you are aware of the situation and can acknowledge it. Sometimes shit just happens and you end up in places, doing things you'd rather not be.
The specific thing I'm curious about are the all-too-common cases of people who do not possess the meta-cognitive awareness that they are engaged in hypocritical behavior.
Not really. Libertarians want government limited to certain essential functions (exactly which those are varies a bit between individual libertarians.)
There's nothing inconsistent about being Libertarian and working for the government in one of those essential functions.
Do you see that as rabid ideology? I ask because I'm always interested in what is becoming the norm (or how far the goalposts of reality move). For instance, while a lot of FB relatives might believe Obama is coming for their guns tomorrow, the last clinic serving the entire Rio Grande Valley in Texas is closing tomorrow.
I also have people who non-stop, 20-30 times a day, post patriotic pro-gun items or a few that pretty much only post pictures of Obama Photoshoped to look like the Devil or Stalin or whatever that I've had to unfollow as well.
My own mother is on the unfollow list because all she posts are heart warming pictures of lakes and natural settings with religious quotes and ghostly pictures of Jesus or whatever on them.
It's endless. I honestly don't know how they never just get bored or tired of it.
In an effort to find more signal in the noise of my feed I just simply turn those people off and if I need to I tell them to just message me if they need me to know something. (Of course now I get religious quotes emailed to me a few times a week...)
Let me look at one of my unfollowed: last 10 posts
1. Picture of soldiers firing guns with a patriotic slogan
2. Picture of a Navy Anchor
3. Some kind of rambling statement about God and country and service.
4. A picture of a congressional hearing with the following text "Facebook wants to delete all pro-gun rights pages: Share this if you think that's a bad idea"
5. Picture of his new indoor gun range
6. Picture of some war memorial statues
7. Picture of guys in Colonial costume reenacting the revolutionary war.
8. Picture of a handgun with the following text "GUNS My right to own one is what protects your right to tell me I can't: like and share"
9. Picture of a handgun, a combat knife and some money
10. Picture of an outdoor shooting range next to a Lincoln style lodge
And I'm not even back into Feb yet.
Here's another one...this goes back to Jan.
1. Picture of a black woman with an inspirational quote
2. image of text supporting gay rights
3. image of a guy holding out his hand, text reads "Just let the lesbian and gay people get married and calm the fuck down"
4. Image of the MLK diner sit ins with inspirational quote
5. Picture of a football player coming out as gay with inspirational quote
6. Statement being upset about some legal issue surrounding gay people.
7. Picture of the pope with link to Dailykos about Rush Limbaugh being a bad person
8. Link to thinkprogress about how Racism caused the shutdown
9. dailykos link about a right-wing truckers beltway blockade
10. link to thenewcivilrightsmovement.com concerning a gay rights issue
These aren't even the worst of the lot. I'm just picking at random. But it goes on.
The government they're "anti" is one which confiscates enormous fractions of productive citizen's incomes, spends far beyond that revenue stream incurring impossible-to-repay debt, twists & breaks the guiding verbiage of the constitution granting it powers, and generally is so far from the aforementioned ideal that the temptation is to scrap it all and start over.
One can also learn the necessity of functioning within a disliked system, sometimes living off & taking advantage of it, because the dominant system makes preferable alternatives unworkable. Working within that system may also make one painfully aware of what's wrong with it, with circumstantial realities making it impractical to do much other than take the money and bitch about it on Facebook.
Hey, there's plenty of people who hate their jobs, employers, industry, etc. - regardless of sociopolitical persuasion of both employee and employer.
Conversationally, it is critical for many people to map their peers, friends & families to these taxonomies. They seem to need to be able to define you as a conservative, liberal or whatever. Along the way, any sense of true, genuine compassion goes out the window until they interact with you more and find where their modeling isn't correct. Then they redefine their cubbyhole for you, unless you entertain or arouse them. Then you're Truly Unique.
So for what it's worth, I appreciate that you're trying to defend a more independent view point, but I argue that doing so on a message board (and in this thread in particular) is utterly futile.
This is one interpretation of the oft-used phrase "one with the universe."
Doubtless I've mangled some of the concepts as bit, for which I apologise, but it's unavoidable when discussing zen.