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Comment by kybernetyk | Hacker News Reader

Were there really people thinking that inhaling a mix of highly carcinogenic compounds would be less harmful than eating protein?

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The problem is in the cancer cargo-culting mindset that people without a scientic education or mindset tends to have.

A person I know doesn't freeze bread because she says it causes cancer, and she's not the only one (far from this...) with such ridiculous preconceptions.

That's the world we live in. "You need to eat healthier," says a skinny person smoking a cigarette and drinking alcohol.

Drinking alcohol has many health benefits. Even a beer a day, something that 'common sense' would lead you to think was unhealthy, demonstrates to be good for your overall health. And eating processed foods while smoking and drinking would likely be more detrimental than eating well, while smoking and drinking. The hard part is determining what eating well is.

People keep yapping on about the health benefits of alcohol, red wine in particular, but I'd be impressed if you could find me a single drinker who only ever drinks that one unit of alcohol a day. At that point it very quickly stops being beneficial to your health.

I typically drink one glass of red wine a night, occasionally two if dinner is particularly good. Feel free to be impressed.

This, of course, also describes about 80% of the population of France.

That might depend heavily on the kind of culture that you live in.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that light drinkers inevitably become heavy drinkers, and thus the benefits of light drinking are irrelevant?

I drink one bottle of beer with dinner each day. Now and again I have two or even three, but that's only a few times a year.

Certainly, when I was younger I used to engage in more recreational/social drinking, ie going to a bar or a party, but I got tired of it.

Where do you live? I'm fascinated by your use of the word 'drinker', as if people who ever drink any alcohol aren't in the vast majority. Where I live (UK), pretty much everyone drinks alcohol at least weekly. Most people drink socially, within healthy boundaries (3-4 units per day is the current guideline), occasionally overindulging, often detoxing for a period of time. Whilst there are social problems caused by alcohol abuse, there is no way that in our society we would 'look down' on each other for consuming alcohol, nor define anyone as a 'drinker'. In my whole life I've met 2 people who are not 'drinkers', and one of them has a very rare drink from time-to-time.

As to your point, yes, of course hardly anyone who ever drinks never drinks more than one unit of alcohol per day; that is practically impossible. But many will drink on average, no more than one unit per day.

> The hard part is determining what eating well is.

Eating well in seven words: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.". ...where "food" is defined more or less as: "as little processed as available, mostly plant-based food in as close to it's natural form as possible".

Citation: Michael Pollan: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t....

But that's kinda my point, we don't know that, anymore than we know an all meat diet is okay for us. Most of the "science" around nutrition would only be acceptable in theoretical physics and paleontology. We're starting to see nutrition studied a little better, but it's the past half decade where we seeing actual science around nutrition, and we'll need at least a couple hundred years before we can say with certainty what is best for human longevity. Until then, we're guessing.

We think cholesterol is bad in excess, and conventional wisdom dictates, that since eggs are high in cholesterol, that eggs should be avoided. Except, the body doesn't metabolize much if any dietary cholesterol, and instead it's the cholesterol that you synthesize that's dangerous. There are some interesting observations with high fat dairy, which actually reduces cholesterol instead of increasing it. Again, conventional wisdom is demonstrating itself to not be correct. Calories in, calories out sounds good on paper, eat less, and you will lose weight. But this also is proven incorrect over and over. I have seen this in studies, and witnessed it first hand with a girl I was living with who was trying to lose weight. She would eat a fifth of the calories that I would eat, and would gain weight, where I would chow down on meat, fats, and green beans and lose weight. What does appear to be apparent is it's easier to maintain a healthy weight if you never gain weight in the first place; essentially your body attempts to return to it's heaviest when calories are available. Many new studies show that the war on salt is based in bad science, and it may not have as much of an impact as we thought. So is a little haiku the answer? I don't know what the right answer is, but I know it isn't that simple.

What's wrong with drinking a small amount of alcohol? There is a small amount of evidence that it is good for you in small amounts* and it is [or can be] a social experience. You can meet a lot of interesting people in pubs. Beer and wine contain antioxidants.

I really really enjoy a beer or two now and then, and I'm not going to feel the least bit guilty about it.

I also happened to meet my (now) husband in a pub.

* http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1059/is-alcohol-...

These tend to be people who drink it heavily.

Same as smoking then?

First sentence of the linked piece:

> “People who eat diets rich in animal protein carry similar cancer risk to those who smoke 20 cigarettes each day,” reports The Daily Telegraph.

Among the Daily Telegraph readership? Absolutely. They're generally contrarian on public-policy matters.

Smoking is not as simple as many assume. Smoking actually changes the disease risk profile a lot, lowering risk for many diseases. It's probably an open question if light smoking is even bad for you. Super centenarians have disproportionately been light smokers.

Super centenarians have way disproportionately been born when everybody smoked. Check back in 50 years.

I hate when people claim things as fact in comments which are entirely unsourced.

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity

Study of the regions of the world known as blue zones,[11] where people commonly live active lives past 100 years of age, have speculated that longevity is related to a healthy social and family life, not smoking, eating a plant-based diet, frequent consumption of legumes and nuts, and engaging in regular physical activity. In another well-designed cohort study, the combination of a plant based diet, frequent consumption of nuts, regular physical activity, normal BMI, and not smoking accounted for differences up to 10 years in life expectancy.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_into_centenarians

Many centenarians manage to avoid chronic diseases even after indulging in a lifetime of serious health risks. For example, many people in the New England Centenarian Study experienced a century free of cancer or heart disease despite smoking as many as 60 cigarettes a day for 50 years. The same applies to people from Okinawa in Japan, where around half of supercentenarians had a history of smoking and one-third were regular alcohol drinkers. It is possible that these people may have had genes that protected them from the dangers of carcinogens or the random mutations that crop up naturally when cells divide.[15]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-secrets-of...

The results are sobering: "There is no pattern," says Barzilai, 54. "The usual recommendations for a healthy life -- not smoking, not drinking, plenty of exercise, a well-balanced diet, keeping your weight down -- they apply to us average people," says the researcher, "but not to them. Centenarians are in a class of their own." He pulls spreadsheets out of a drawer, adjusts his glasses and reads out loud: "At the age of 70, a total of 37 percent of our subjects were, according to their own statements, overweight, and 8 percent were obese; 37 percent were smokers, on average for 31 years; 44 percent said that they only moderately exercised; 20 percent never exercised."

But Barzilai is quick to point out that people shouldn't start questioning the importance of a healthy lifestyle: "Today's changes in lifestyle do in fact contribute to whether someone dies at the age of 85 or already at age 75." But in order to reach the age of 100, says the researcher, you need a special genetic make-up. "These people age differently. Slower. They end up dying of the same diseases that we do -- but 30 years later and usually quicker, without languishing for long periods."

37 percent isn't disproportionate. It is about average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_tobacco_consumpti...

Citation needed.

Yes, citation needed, for you. When you make claims you need to back them up. How hard of a concept is that?

You can't just go around spouting "facts" without any basis.

EDIT:

Congratulations, you have just been hellbanned for your comments to me. But since you asked for a citation, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_burden_of_evidence

How is making an (possibly incorrect) assertion without providing evidence an argument from ignorance?

I can't for the life of me figure out what was so offensive or trolly about a8da6b0c91d's comments.

>You can't just go around spouting "facts" without any basis.

Really?

No.

In no way is it an "open question' if "light smoking" is even bad for you: "light and intermittent smoking pose substantial risks; the adverse health outcomes parallel dangers observed among daily smoking, particularly for cardiovascular disease."

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/121/13/1518.full

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2036.2000....

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-4362.2000....

http://www.data-yard.net/10v2/parkinson.htm

http://www.data-yard.net/30/asthma.htm

http://www.data-yard.net/10c/nicotine.htm

http://www.data-yard.net/10b/cm.htm

http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/brea.htm

http://www.data-yard.net/13/tlj.htm

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/5/366.abst...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3613836?dopt=Abstract

http://jap.physiology.org/content/63/1/152.abstract?ijkey=3e...

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/80/16/1329.abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1447-0594.2006....

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/13/9/1444.full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailV...

Please.

Thalidomide is a good anti-nausea drug. Women who take thalidomide during pregnancy are at lower risk for nausea. Now, do you want to argue whether or not "light thalidomide" exposure during pregnancy is bad is an "open question"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Birth_defects_crisi...

Because that's what you're arguing with nicotine, along with cherry picking questionable studies, moving the goal posts, and even linking to organizations associated with tobacco manufacturing.

Opioids have beneficial uses. So do you want us to think that it's an "open question" about whether "light intravenous use of heroin" as practiced is a good thing?

Did you actually READ any of the articles you linked? In almost every case you cite, mention is made of the overall risks of smoking ANY amount. In some cases, the articles aren't even talking about smoking - they are merely talking about nicotine in a variety of forms.

“Any smoking, even social smoking, is dangerous,” says David Wetter, Ph.D., chair of the Department of Health Disparities Research at M. D. Anderson. “Cigarettes and cigars are the only legal products whose advertised and intended use -- smoking -- will cause cancer and kill the consumer.”

http://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/iss...

But let's play citation. Is second-hand smoke "light" enough exposure for you? Here are the health risks, which are not "open questions":

https://www.google.com/search?q=google+scholar+second+hand+s...

And c'mon, really? Really? You cite a damned mouse study on carbon monoxide as that you think might be evidence that smoking might somehow, some way, be helpful...for...wait for it....heart attack and stroke? You cite a cell study that shows elevated levels of glutathione in smokers lungs and you want us to therefore magically jump to the laughable belief that smoking is therefore somehow good for your lungs? You cite a study that claims that rare thyroid cancer is reduced among smokers, when the likeliest explanation is that thyroid cancer is so rare that smokers die of other more common cancers and little things like strokes and heart attacks long before they can ever develop thyroid cancer.

Many of the other bullshit claims you cite above have been thoroughly debunked:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3637838/

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/long-term-smoking-increase...

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/58649.php

What's wrong with light heroin use? I doubt it's a problem. You seem like some sort of puritan.

I don't think much of anything you've said or linked has bearing on a cigarette a day in the context of a healthy diet. Are you as dogmatic about not living in cities? Because urban air pollution is a known stressor.

So now you're agreeing that known "stressors" like dirty air are in fact problematic.

Why don't you tell us more about the "open questions" of how safe dirty needles and dirty nicotine delivery systems are.

Now if you'll excuse me, you seem like someone uninterested in reason or in supporting your silly, shifting claims, and who is much more interested in rationalizing your own bad health habits.

Have a nice day.

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