Apple is shutting down OpenNI | Hacker News Reader

Apple is shutting down OpenNI

openni.org

70 pointsomershapira65 comments

Between this and Testflight, I get the impression that Apple wants to rule its app ecosystem in the feudal sense. Whatever "indy" contingent there is, it is just meant to effectively be the bush leagues for the major league, which is Apple itself.

Hopefully, Apple will realize that it's sometimes better to co-opt than to control, especially when what you'd be trying to control is an ecosystem experiencing dramatic growth. It's this kind of realization that resulted in the iOS App Store in the first place.

That said, Apple is in a good position to continue its feudal rule, for now, as (IIRC) Apple's income is far larger than that produced by the App Stores in aggregate. This would be analogous to the late Middle Ages when the rise of the merchants began, but their wealth and power were still dwarfed by the feudal power structure and the church. The merchants were useful to the existing power structure, but still had to kowtow to it.

So the way to defeat Apple, if that's what you want to do, is to foster the growth of a better ecosystem than the iOS App Store. (Or, it could be worse, but still bigger, unfortunately.)

Nonsense! Shutdown of existing product is a pretty common outcome for any acquisition

In some cases like Google acquiring Sparrow, it's because the acquisition was really a case of hiring an entire team. In other cases, the shutdown is so the acquisition can focus their efforts on a new product. This is clearly the latter case.

I know that in some circles folks make Apple out to be some sort of evil. Be careful that your bias doesn't lead you to make claims that are unsupported by evidence.

If you define "good" as spreading knowledge and access to technology across all platforms, and "evil" as shutting down multi-platform technologies and restricting them to just one walled-garden ecosystem, then Apple is definitely "evil" in this instance.

I'll hedge a bit (I don't know much about OpenNI), but I'd posit you're interpreting Apple's moves entirely wrong, mixed in with a bit of entrenched anti-Apple fandom (based solely on you advising folks on how to defeat them). At the very least, you're definitely interpreting the situation based solely on Apple's role in owning the app store, and not of the company as a whole.

While I don't know about the OP open source project, as a iOS dev I know quite a bit about using Testflight. The feudal analogy really breaks down there; this has nothing to do with ruling the app world, it's a technical decision based on code-signing and app distribution. Apple came up with the system that does that, and TestFlight made it about 100x better, so Apple acquired them (and are now working on making the 1st party system infinitely better).

Historically, Apple has most all their projects in-house in order to focus solely on the product and the way technology integrates. So when they close on an acquisition, it's very common for Cupertino to EOL other efforts at make the new hires and technology part of the company. When that's your approach to design, there's very little reason to support open source libraries and other projects other than your own.

Come now, for years devs have criticized Apple for not having a proper first-party beta-testing solution. Now what might be their step into addressing that developer cry is being used against them in the typical Apple-controls-everything-FUD?

(I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, sadly...) (And, lets alt-history a bit here: had they rolled their own solution they would have been criticized for "sherlocking yet another indy product")

It's just what Ben Farrell predicted: http://www.benfarrell.com/2013/11/28/primesense-purchased-by....

Apparently I have to buy something with a fruit symbol on it, to be able to develop for 3D sensors in the future...

There's Google's Project Tango [0] as well.

0. http://www.google.com/atap/projecttango/

Yes, Tango is cool, but I think everybody on the earth tried to get a kit. :-) I did. So not much luck getting that soon. Just now I'm working on the Leap to control my television. :-)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7274204

basically build your own Tango

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35xbo3r8rA https://github.com/nymanjens/ardrone-exploration

This is when I'm especially thankful for open source licenses. The OpenNI2 repository on github currently has 148 forks:

https://github.com/OpenNI/OpenNI2

I've been using OpenNI2 with ROS and an ASUS Xtion Pro Live for object detection and avoidance. What I think the community is missing is missing right now isn't really on the software side, but is good, cheap, hardware. I'd be thrilled if I could buy a Carmine or something like it from Apple, but I don't see how it makes any business sense.

The NITE driver is what matters, though. OpenNI is just a wrapper and an API.

This is exactly what we knew would happen. Apple is not our friend. They are at best an ally, and at worst prepared to destroy an industry for the sake of profit and domination.

This. For some, this is SO hard to understand.

You could make that argument about any company.

Like Mozilla? Cloudera? any other open-source company? I know hyperbolic statements are fashionable, but this one isn't really true.

"They are at best an ally, and at worst prepared to destroy an industry for the sake of profit and domination."

This is everybody in the industry. Convince yourself otherwise at your own peril.

Yeah, but is a bit different when you are so big that you crush everywhere you walk.

This is everybody in the industry. Convince yourself otherwise at your own peril.

Really? Even open source projects? Or let me guess, you'd argue that open source projects aren't part of the "industry".

Corporate-sponsored open source is very much part of the industry, often more so than closed source projects due to ubiquity.

Well, if RMS and similar zealots could have their way, they would have crushed the software industry for the sake of OSS/GNU domination. If he could influence policy, for example, he'd probably try to ban proprietary software.

And if you think that's beneficial, well, I for one would rather keep my Premiere and Logic and the (dongle locked) Reason, than just be forced to use the crappy open source alternatives out there.

People who want good software would find a way to make it and pay for it even if proprietary software were outlawed (which I don't think is a good idea, for the record).

I'd hardly call taking down a website "destroying an industry for profit and domination". The OpenNI Framework source code isn't going to disappear.

The framework source code is not the important part -- it's just dumb plumbing and glue. The tracking code (NITE) is what's important. It is not open source at all -- merely freely available. (All you can get are the compiled libraries.) As far as I know, this is the only freely available, full body skeleton tracker that works on Linux.

Does OpenNI even have non-skeletal blob tracking on its own, or is NITE required for that as well?

While other companies like Google are truly our friends. They are a public company, not a non-profit.

>They are at best an ally, and at worst prepared to destroy an industry for the sake of profit and domination.

You mean the iOS app industry that they created out of thin air themselves, offering the platform, an API, and a far better environment (and terms) than the god awful Java ME stores of the past?

What does OpenNI and desktop augmented reality apps have to do with the iOS app industry?

Why, did parent talked specifically about the augmented reality apps industry, or used the OpenNI to make a general point about how Apple would crush the independent app industry for profit?

No for profit company is your friend.

Apple does not want to contribute to the open source community?

Is that surprising?

Yes, repeating this nonsense that Apple is against open source is indeed surprising. Bus I guess facts should not interfere with opinions.

so what's your explanation?

  Error establishing a database connection

...Website down; some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenNI

Why does the title say Apple is shutting down OpenNI, then link to a page that says nothing about it? Furthermore, how do you shut down someone else's company, and how do you shut down a project whose code is freely available? This doesn't make sense.

The page states prominently that the website will be closed after April 23rd. Primesense is Apple's property. Apple can do whatever it wants with it. Lastly the open source code will still be available, only the website will shut down as far as I understand it.

The story is a change of paradigm as well. Primesense sold depth capture hardware, the kind that made lot of open source projects possible. Killing openNI is the final nail in this coffin. The open source depth capture world is left in a void right now, and this being open source, it'll take a while before any competitor will make their API work with all that we've been making.

What about libfreenect?

https://github.com/OpenKinect/libfreenect

They do different things. Not clear what can be discussed online, but the Kinect 1 is on its way out, and there's no open source replacement as of yet.

The OpenKinect group is working on the Kinect One.

You can totally come participate - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/openkinect

Oh you're right, it says right there... huh. I'm not sure if I just spaced out or if that didn't load. I tried looking at thew news and blog and didn't see anything.

Anyway, it's good that the code will still be around.

The puzzlement may stem from the fact that if your default browser preferences deny a site the use of Javascript, the region in question (to the left of the large, wide green buttons toward the top of the front page) that displays that announcement is left blank. I was similarly nonplussed at first.

It is not about the software. OpenNI is useless if there are NO MORE sensors. Xtion, structio.io all based in prime sense sensors !

What does this mean for the Structure Sensor's integration with OpenNI?

(https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/occipital/structure-sen...)

Hopefully one of the OpenNI open-source forks will emerge as the de facto "main" fork, and everyone will use that.

Pkinsky - Adam from Occipital here (we make the Structure Sensor).

As of now, you can use OpenNI with the Structure Sensor on any platforms currently supported by OpenNI. We’ve also forked OpenNI on GitHub (along with many others who have done the same) to make sure it remains available after April 23rd.

For those who don’t want to compile code, we’ll also host binaries at http://structure.io/developers for OS X and potentially other platforms.

We’re working on creating new open source Structure Sensor drivers for Android, Linux, Windows and OS X (these are not based on OpenNI at all). Let us know if you’d like to contribute to that effort by sending us an email at structure >at< occipital.com.

Keep in mind that the discontinuation of active maintenance for OpenNI does not affect the Structure Sensor for iOS at all because on iOS, we use Structure SDK, not OpenNI.

Keep an eye on http://structure.io/developers, or sign up for the Structure SDK developer email list for more info.

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply!

For how long will you be able to provide the hardware? You are using prime sense sensors so Apple could shut you down anytime, no ?

Despite Apple’s acquisition of PrimeSense, we're on track to fulfill all existing Structure Sensor demand and beyond. Interruptions are possible if we have supply chain issues, but we're optimistic that we'll be able to deliver Structure Sensors for the foreseeable future.

Is there more information available than just that quick statement on the front page? The about page calls openNI a consortium and lists 5 founding companies [1].

[1] http://www.openni.org/organization/

So, is there anywhere that indicates that the github codebase (under the apache license) @ https://github.com/OpenNI/OpenNI2 is also going to be scuttled? Or just the website?

It's more profitable when things can't interoperate.

there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how/why apple is doing this.

anyone know what's up?

The same thing that was "up" when they bought Siri, Inc (from SRI International).

They acquired a technology that they're going to use to differentiate their products. And apparently they feel it's a more strategic technology than, say, WebKit or LLVM.

They didn't "acquire" WebKit or LLVM in quite the same way as Siri or OpenNI.

And no-one said they did.

I mentioned WebKit and LLVM to make the distinction between technologies Apple has no problem making available to 'the community' and those they do not.

Right before they are set to release a new version of the Apple TV. I wouldn't be surprised if these two things are related.

Why would they be related?

well, you can put a kinect type camera on the tv and then use it for gesture based input. just like kinect.

so theoretically maybe people could make kinect apps for apple tv / iOS?

(sorry, i'm using the term "kinect" since i'm not sure what the real term is for this type of thing)

https://code.google.com/p/interactive-spaces/

https://github.com/interactivespaces/interactivespaces

I bought a DepthSense 325 which is the chip behind the new Creative / Intel 3d cam coming out

http://www.softkinetic.com/en-us/products/depthsensecameras....

Right now I can buy a used Kinect for about $35.00 and write code using OpenNI that gives me access to the 3D depth map from the Kinect. If I can't do this anymore, what is my recourse? Will libfreenect remain open?

libfreenect will remain open.

PCL and OpenCV will similarly remain open.

The loss of Primesense is the loss of NITE. The only recourse is a team building an open source skeletonization alternative.

Those who are looking for the OpenNI drivers, they are still open source and can be downloaded through https://github.com/OpenNI/OpenNI2

For how much longer will the drivers remain open? Microsoft was able to kill OSS libraries that made calls to DirectX and OpenGL hardware interchangeable. Seems like Apple would like you to get their permi$$ion from now on and could do the same.

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