It's easy to see why Ukrainians would want to align with open economies of the west than with Russia.
What is happening actually in Ukraine is what you get when 2 super-powers choose a foreign country as a battlefield. The stakes are high, because who ever controls Ukraine has the biggest say in the Euro-Asia region over the other (Germany vs Russia). Ukraine could play a key-role in a new form of union that Russia wants to create with it's neighbors. If Ukraine joins then, they have the numbers to face on military, political and financial level both the USA and the EU. If not, it's just Russia basically, the others don't add much to the sum.
Ukraine's elites are split, but of course they are not the ones bleeding on the street. They have average Joe's for that. This country became independent in 1991 but never achieve real independence (much as my beloved Greece) from foreign interests and now they are slaughtering everything and everyone.
The liberal west is using Nazi groups (far-right wing skinheads) to physically attack the current establishment. So it's for democratic governments to use Nazis when they see fit. The government responds in a very Russian way and you get chaos.
Mind you, that Yanukovych was at least elected and the people do not trust the opposition's leader either (and how could they?).
None of this is for the good of Ukranian people, this is just foreign super-powers tearing a country apart, for their own sake. Everything else is for mass consumption.
Both sides are equally corrupted. I feel sorry for the Ukrainian population because they are caught up on a spiral from which I don't know how they could get off, without getting hurt.
ps. As for the 19BN deal, what are you proposing exactly? If you have 19 BN for every Ukranian (45M people) out there, I'm sure they will be eager to hear from you.
- this is bullshit, because the driving force of the protests is disgust of the widespread corruption and rotting of the whole system. People are very tired of the general air of the lawless governing. EU does not act at all, as it seems to us, peaceful protesters. Though I agree that Russia can't be aside when a country is getting out of its sphere of influence.
> Ukraine's elites are split, but of course they are not the ones bleeding on the street.
- that is bullshit because protests have begun exactly with the average Joe's anger to Yanukovych decisions. The scale of protests was a great surprise to the opposition. Russians tend to greatly overestimate influence of elites on political process.
> The liberal west is using Nazi groups (far-right wing skinheads)
- this is bullshit, because Ukrainian nationalists are not Nazis and are not skinheads (who are widespread in Russia), Ukrainian nationalism is not based on ethnicity, it's based on idea of sovereign Ukrainian State living in peace with anyone who is not a threat to its existence and well-being. Yes, there are minor groups of real far right forces like S14, they are used heavily by Russian media to demonize Ukrainian nationalists, but they don't have any real influence.
> Yanukovych was at least elected - Hitler also had been democratically elected, this does not justify any of his ensuing deeds.
> the people do not trust the opposition's leader - it's true, we don't follow them blindly, they depend on Maidan much more than Maidan depends on them. We trust them as far as they express our will.
> None of this is for the good of Ukranian people - me, as a Ukrainian, disagrees with you.
> Both sides are equally corrupted. - this is a popular propaganda cliche to make people passive and to kill their will to change a corrupt leader. It is hard to imagine a person who can do more harm to Ukraine than Yanukovych did.
I live in Kiev and I am also very tired of explaining why these premises based on Russian propaganda, are not correct. Come to Maidan (it's easy if you live in Russia), see with your own eyes, then think again of all that bullshit.
Russian medias are biased (as West medias are), but I don't see how it related to post above.
No. They are completely wrong or a complete fantasy. From things that are fantasy like "this is not good for ukrainians", or conspiracy-like talks about "big games by giants" bla-bla, to being wrong in facts like "west is using Nazis". Complete bullshit. It's not Nazis there, it's normal people from both, East and West.
p.s.: Russian medias are not biased, they are writing complete shit, from obviously underestimating number of protestors, to saying bullshit like "Ukrainian people protest against laws that forbid Nacism and Fashism". How biased you need to be to say bullshit like this?
- "It's not Nazis there" - it again easily verifiable that there are Nazis (just first West media from google [1]), you are trying to ignore the obvious here
- "Russian medias are not biased, they are writing complete shit" - I'm not familiar with all russian medias, only with some online news, and for them I can clearly state that they are writing not more shit that popular West media
1. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/22/ukraine...
How do you call Pravij Sektor then? UNA-UNSO? White Hammer?
I never stated that all the people involved are Nazis. No the presence of the Nazis is not irrelevant at all, it's the exactly the opposite: It's very relevant because it says a lot about the real goal of the opposition: Come to power no matter what.
I know that Arseniy Yatsenyuk is backed by USA interests and Vitali Klitschko by EU (German) interests. So it's a sort of a triangle, but these two for the time being are against the Russian backed current PM Yanukovych.
As for the "Liberal West". Theoretically the west (EU, UK & USA) are promoters of democracy, civil rights and so on. Both Klitschko and Yatsenyuk were in Berlin 24 hours before the massacre. So when Nazis with guns were attacking government buildings the two opposition leaders were embracing the move with specific remarks from "Square of Freedom". So there is clearly a link between the legal opposition and the extremist far-right (Nazi + other kind of) opposition. Of course, we don't know if in Berlin any decisions were taken, but then again you have to be a little bit naive to believe in this sort of coincidence.
In this and many others cases, the goals do NOT justify the means, because if the opposition uses (directly or indirectly) the Nazis today, no one says that they are not going to use them again tomorrow against their next enemy. It's simple as that.
The EU's stance is very descriptive: The first day they condemn the episodes (by the Nazi opposition), the next day announces sanctions against the current government!!! It's embarrassing: The EU wants the Ukranian government to stand down because they don't like it.
I'm not saying Putin is any better, but I expect the EU to be a lot better than Putin, China or Iran by supporting democratic values, not back-channeling and fueling war.
this fight has been going for several hundred years, since before times when one out of these 2 super-powers came to existence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6UkzJs9h0&feature=player_de...
>None of this is for the good of Ukranian people, this is just foreign super-powers tearing a country apart, for their own sake.
learn the history and real situation in Ukraine today.
(A Russian here. Personally don't like "zapadencev", yet respect for brave fighting for their vision of their country even in the face of sharp shooters who were pretty active today shooting protesters down on Maidan like practice targets. As Litovians/Latvians/Estonians were saying 25+ years ago fighting similar fight - "For our and yours freedom")
It is not Litovnians etc who were saying that, but Russians who were dumb enough to support their fight for independence just to be locked up in ghetto after that.
For somebody who also lives in a country that is heavily influenced by Russia, it is clear that this is actually a peoples protest.
Put in simple words: There is no way for anybody to do any business with somebody outside Russia's circle. There is no way for anybody outside Russia's circle to tap into any of these countries. There isn't any visible progress and there aren't any kind of investments coming in.
I suspect some people got mad.
And Ukraine is not a battlefield created by super-powers. Super powers only aligned with the sides after it erupted. And people don't give a shit about them anyway. It's the same argument as blaming Ukrainian opposition - protesters don't give a shit about opposition, opposition only uses protests to sneak their way into power.
People are just fed with corruption and criminals in power, all the political fighting is secondary here, despite Russian propaganda efforts to paint it otherwise.
"...despite Russian propaganda efforts to paint it otherwise."
You seem to know a lot about geopolitics, strategy, and psychological warfare! Why would a player limit itself to only align with someone after the eruption of a given conflict? Why would it refrain from causing an opportunistic conflict in the first place? And why a superpower for that mater when the requirements for this kind of dirty games are (usually) low?
That's like releasing a lion to eat your house neighbor because you had a quarrel. It's really THAT stupid. These are Nazis, they are not people with whom you can reason. Not to mention the message you are sending to others: I wanna come to power no matter what, I'll do whatever it takes (rape, kill, steal, etc) to stay there. So you're no better than the current ones, you might even be worse.
> And Ukraine is not a battlefield created by super-powers. Super powers only aligned with the sides after it erupted. And people don't give a shit about them anyway.
Do you know what are you even talking about? You think Klitschko and Yatsenyuk being in Berlin 24 hours before the mess, is just a coincidence. It might be, but I can't believe it. I'll go with the conspiracy that they got full support from Germany and USA and they decided that it was time to use guns. The fact that other forces, which are not controlled by the opposition weighted in, is irrelevant. I mean, THEY are the irrelevant part, not the other way around.
> People are just fed with corruption and criminals in power, all the political fighting is secondary here, despite Russian propaganda efforts to paint it otherwise.
And what exactly to propose for people to do: Overthrown the government not by elections but by force? This gave (actually already did happen) the excuse to USA, EU and Russia to weight in. We might even see an armed conflict there, as we saw in Syria.
The thing is that you can't fight fire with fire, because you'll get burned. Of course the largest part of the population - no in Ukraine, everywhere - can not see the big picture until it's too late. History repeats itself.
I feel for the people, I agree that both sides are equally corrupted but I don't think violence is the answer. It will only make things worst.
This is people willing to die not be part of Russia and not to live in a kleptocracy. This is blood being spilled for freedom. It is terrible, but necessary if you do not want to live under the rulership of the most brutal.
I know that now the protests are against the anti-protest laws and the beatings, but the EU deal was also a factor, and would probably be a factor again once the protests end.
Then there was a night when protested people got beaten by police, next morning goverment commented that "it was done to be able to install New-Year Tree!". That's when everything really started. It's not about EU now, really.