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Comment by Nrsolis | Hacker News Reader

THIS.

Like I've said in other comments on Snowden: he had an agenda.

This wasn't just simply a case of a guy who was involved in something he couldn't stomach any longer; he went in with the intention of gaining access to materials he didn't have a right to see. He took on the persona of a mole and use the access he did have to gain the trust of people via subterfuge. THAT is how he got these documents.

If Snowden had a foreign handler, then he would be called a "spy." The jury is still out on whether or not that was the case.

I'm not taking anything away from the disclosures that were made about NSA overreach, but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it?

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If you think there's any evidence of Snowden being run as an asset of a foreign government, you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns by a few Congressmen. There is zero evidence of this. If there were any, the administration would be trumpeting it far and wide.

These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world.

Edward Snowden, July 2013

That is an awfully nice thing to say about the Russian establishment. It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia.

I doubt that he's happy about having to seek refuge in Russia.

To be fair, he was in a precarious position at the time. Did he make statements like that before the whole thing started?

> Edward Snowden, July 2013

That's hardly evidence those governments are running him as an intelligence asset.

> It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia.

There's something to be said for not wanting to get kicked out of the one country to grant asylum. Again, hardly makes him a spy for them.

Point is he took classified intelligence documents to China, then Russia. He never says anything bad about Russian political leaders and he occasionally says very good things about Russian political leaders. His disclosures also frequently seem to cause strife among NATO allies.

What you said is that if you think Snowden is a foreign agent, then "you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns." What I'm saying is that there is a very suspicious (though not conclusive) pattern in his behavior. You don't need any "whisper campaigns" to see it. There is plenty of room to doubt his motivations.

What exactly are you saying his "motivations" were?

It actually makes far less sense that Snowden would publicly praise the countries for which he is secretly spying. It makes more sense that he was making those comments as a matter of expediency (he was seeking asylum, after all).

And, say what you will, but the man is not without intelligence. The irony and impact of making those statements about Russia as a U.S. citizen in that situation was not lost on him.

But all of this a sideshow and a red herring. So, let's just say Snowden was a spy. Let's also say he was a member of al Qaeda.

Now, about those revelations regarding our government's activities...

> Point is he took classified intelligence documents to China, then Russia.

The same is true for any embassy courier. If he's not providing the decryption passphrases, who cares?

> His disclosures also frequently seem to cause strife among NATO allies.

That's only because "US spying on Russia/China/etc." was a given and hardly a surprise.

LOL. How about China/Russia spying on US?

What I find so hilarious about all of this is that China and Russia have been SO AGGRESSIVE in their use of technological capability to effect a spying apparatus in the USA and on our assets abroad.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-04-07/news/mn-175_1_new-emb...

I think people often think that regular laws and customs are at play in the world of state vs. state. The truth is FAR more complicated.

Statecraft is big boy rules.

Just because he never said anything in public against the Nazis does not mean he is a Nazi. I also don't understand why you expect Snowden, who is in such a precarious position, should speak out against Russia when you could take a plane to Moscow and do it yourself.

Did you miss the part where Snowden claims Russia is the first to stand against human rights violations? Reread the quote. If you think Snowden is a principled champion of civil rights, how do you square that with the fact that he is on the record praising Russia's civil rights record?

In context, that statement sounds like he's talking about Russia's actions with regard to his case. I wouldn't read the quote as "Russia's really nice to gay people!". I'd read it as "Russia granted me asylum rather than throwing me to a possible execution/life imprisonment for whistleblowing."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: He chose Russia and China because priority #1 when you're running FROM someone, is to not get caught by them. Those were large nations he could (relatively) easily get into, that are not friends with the US and would not immediately turn him over to the US.

I'm sure he would have preferred to run and hide in Switzerland or Canada, or Japan, or any one of a hundred other countries, except that they would have hauled him in and stuck him on a plane/boat/truck back to the US as soon as he was identified.

This is a perfectly reasonable 'not a spy' reason to run to those countries, in case you lacked the imagination to go any further than 'he only went there because he was a spy.'

Dude, I'm lot listening to any congressmen at all. I'm going with my gut on this one.

I've got some pretty well-known friends who have written volumes about the NSA. They are happy to see these disclosures. I'm happy to see our discussion finally informed with some actual examples of over-reach.

That said, I'm not going to crown Snowden a hero. I don't believe he's innocent by a mile. His intentions were far from honorable and more akin to self-aggrandizement than honest debate about the role of government in our communications privacy.

Watch this interview and you might reevaluate your statement on whether or not his intentions were honorable: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151

> but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it?

Probably not, but your government hates YOU so much that they are willing to spy on you on every occasion.

Uh...no.

To borrow your logic, show me a solid example of the USG using this vast surveillance network to oppress civil rights en masse.

The USG has been able to suppress individual civil rights without any of this stuff. All of the evidence thus far has indicated that they have only ever used this capability to target foreign bad actors.

You're exactly right. Snowden was a spy, working for the citizens of the United States to infiltrate the extra-constitutional USG.

You guys have drunk the Kool-aid.

Make it about snowmen. Forget that the program has stopped ZERO attacks. Forget that the opportunity for abuse is off the charts. Forget that our government is completely off the rails on this issue.

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