Hiring Interns the Legal Way | Hacker News Reader

Hiring Interns the Legal Way

justworks.com

19 pointswdewind15 comments

In the Software Engineering Industry, I believe unpaid internships should not be allowed; it's not a high-barrier market! I personally like to work for people who value my time above $0/h. I have to pay rent, tuition, food, etc; why should I work for your company for free when I can work somewhere else?

For example, being a CS undergrad at UWaterloo, internships usually pay between $16-$40, depending on the experience and year in school. In fact, unpaid internships are not allowed to be posted.

In the worst case scenario, I would rather create and contribute to open-source projects than work for someone for $0/h. I am sure people would be more impressed in projects.

Shouldn't people be allowed to choose? As a student, maybe you would demand $40/hour from a web dev chop shop, but offer to intern for Andy Rubin for free? I understand the need to weed out scam artists and prevent exploitation, but don't kill the entire concept at the same time. Most students and newly minted developers I know should be way more focused on experience, mentors, and quality of environment, than the absolute amount they are paid in the short-term.

Why should we have regulations against dumping nuclear waste into the public water supply? Shouldn't people be allowed to choose?

Sure, if you really are a fan of a company and are willing to sacrifice pay to learn and do what you love, then do it.

But you must realize that companies make a lot of money; the software engineering industry has some of the highest profit margins. If they have money, I would expect them to pay interns. If it was an early stage startup, I wouldn't.

Are there really that many unpaid interns in the software industry? I can see if someone wants to get into media or an ad agency, but those seem like the exception. I honestly can't think of a single CS major who went unpaid. I can think of just one example of a liberal arts major trying to reinvent themselves as a data scientist who spent a few months as an unpaid intern.

I understand the law, and I understand not abusing interns, but the market seems to work here. Companies with any kind of financial strength want to pay interns because otherwise they won't get the best. The exception is real skill building internships.

I won't speak for other industries. (And the government is just as bad)

Since your site is now down, I'll offer some advice on how to hire (anyone) the legal way:

Pay them.

Haha, generally speaking that's not bad advice, but there are some times when it's ok to not pay them (article talks about those).

Sorry about the site, working on getting it back up!

Edit: and we're back!

"there are some times when it's ok to not pay them"

No. No, there are not. If someone is working for you, then you pay them. It's that simple.

The problem here is you two are disagreeing because you're approaching the problem from different viewpoints: legal and ethical. Is it legal to hire an intern unpaid? Yes (assuming you comply with the law). Is it ethical to hire an intern unpaid? Most tech people (The majority of HN's audience) would say no. But, that's for your company to decide.

I think there are a ton of different situations, and certainly sometimes unpaid internships can be exploitative, but I wouldn't agree that by definition they are. Either way, our article is more about the legal issues than the ethical ones. I suppose I should've said "some times when it's legal not to pay them." :)

I don't know if unpaid internships are technically considered "hiring", but I think that is the root of the misunderstanding. All the implications of the word "hiring" that I can think of violate your 6 point test. You don't hire people to educate them, or to benefit them primarily, or to not do something your employees would do.

>>The employer derives no immediate advantage from the intern;

If the intern is doing work for free that the employer would have to have a paid employee perform, they are gaining an advantage and therefore are violating the law.

Can you honestly give an example of an unpaid internship where the employer is not gaining an advantage? If so, then it is fine to not pay them. But those are very, very rare. My opinion, obviously, but I can't think of a non-contrived example.

If you're working for free, then you're being exploited. Period.

I'll tell you what. If you don't think that unpaid internships are that bad, then why don't you give up your salary and work for nothing?

The use of unpaid interns in the US has long boggled my mind - I just could not conceive of this being legal.

But that does beg the question: In what jurisdictions is it legal to employ unpaid workers, and under what circumstances?

My knee-jerk naive judgment would be that it is always illegal in my jurisdictions of greatest interest (Ontario, Canada), but I'd like to know more - and I don't particularly trust wikipedia where legal matters are concerned.

Any informed HNers care to comment?

Hi HN,

At Justworks we specialize in payroll, benefits and compliance. We know a lot of startups want to hire interns and are confused about whether or not you need to pay them. We wrote a small guide to help you determine when you're safe and when you may need to speak with a lawyer to make sure you're compliant. Take a look at let us know if you have any questions! Please also feel free to ask us any general questions about hiring, taxes, payroll, health insurance etc. that you may have, we'd be happy to answer :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com