Once the full stop meant a sentence was over – now it means you're angry | Hacker News Reader

Once the full stop meant a sentence was over – now it means you're angry

newstatesman.com

22 pointssjcsjc53 comments

I always strive to use correct spelling and punctuation regardless of the media used and tend to view people who fail to do so as being less educated than those who take the time to do as I do.

So fuck off if you misconstrue a properly placed bit of punctuation.

So much empathy./s

Context is extremely important in non-verbal, text communication. You are only harming yourself and your relationships with others by employing such attitude.

I have to agree with vdianuk (or whatever) here. You may not think you're being judgmental by applying criteria to others' grammar, but you are.

You aren't writing a book; you're talking to someone. IMing in completely perfect sentences does give an air of distance.

On the other hand, couldn't it be construed as just as judgmental when you feel that way about "perfect" sentences?

There's something to be said about taking the written word at face value and trying not to read into it much. I suspect the latter is because, without verbal cues or body language present, the human brain requires addition input to read the emotional state of the writer. Without that, it examines things that are probably incidental and meaningless but certainly not without consequence.

I am being judgmental - I'm suggesting he is wrong. It's just that in this case, he is judging a lot of others harshly, and I'm judging him for that.

We at HN are probably not the most emotionally connected anyways, so there's going to be a huge gap between the average HN experience/opinion on this topic vs. the general population.

> We at HN are probably not the most emotionally connected anyways, so there's going to be a huge gap between the average HN experience/opinion on this topic vs. the general population

This is probably quite true, particularly for those of us who are of the INTx MBTIs.

That said, my sarcasm was an attempt to illustrate the silly nature of this entire debate. Although I do agree with the OP (insofar as I can't help myself from feeling lax capitalization and punctuation is lazy), I also can't help but feel that getting worked up over punctuation is rather stupid.

We're probably in agreement to that end, though.

We're humans; of course we're judgemental. If you forget your punctuation (or use the wrong punctuation) in a cover letter, you're going to be judged on that as well (and probably not get the job).

First impressions are important to humans. "y ru not here" will be judged very differently from "Just wanted to make sure you're still able to come."

I have to admit that I chuckled at this comment, but mostly because I was nodding in partial agreement and partially because I expected to find at least one comment that said exactly this. :)

Wherever possible, I try to do the same. I understand it can be difficult with text messages quickly hammered out on a less than ideal interface, but I still can't shake the thought that refusal to at least properly capitalize is at the very least lazy. Although, I do find that as the years go by, I generally ignore these things if I'm already familiar with the person I'm communicating with, their habits, and typing behavior. Alarms only go off for me if their typing habits change dramatically (capitalizing where they normally didn't), because it means that they're on a different device than they normally use or because something else is going on.

Most of the time, you can take the extra time to form your thought properly. Are we really in that much of a hurry?

No, I don't think so. Not generally, that is (standing in a line, distractions, or messy transportation notwithstanding). There's a part of me that feels a certain dismay for the mangling we've wrought upon the written word, but mostly because I know there isn't anything much that can be done...

Although I do find one thing of particular amusement. A friend of mine IMs me with proper punctuation and capitalization only when he's on his iDevice and not at a keyboard. So I have to wonder if sometimes the opposite of TFA's argument is applicable...

Huh. First I've heard of that idea. I wonder if it's generational?

Looking at my texts, I seem to use it or not more or less at random.

I did notice a while back that I tend to be more careful with capitalization and punctuation the more invested I am with the conversation. It's a pretty good predictor for me, actually.

I randomly alternate between it as well and had no idea about this either, despite being a member of Generation Z. Though an article on the same topic was posted previously on HN.

That's probably because I don't ever write text messages. All of my communication that involves typing goes on in IRC, Skype groups and news sites/message boards.

This rings true to me (social circle : early 20's - early 30's).

Related : my (ex) girlfriend once noted that "k" - as opposed to "kk" - was a sign of mild annoyance or anger. Turns out I was actually annoyed when I used it, but hadn't even thought about it consciously until then.

Weird, I have one friend that uses "kk" and it registers as short and dismissive.

I used to have a boss who did this in actual speech. He hated talking to people, and when you were talking to him, you could tell how badly he wanted you to shut up by how many times he'd say "cool." As in, "cool" wasn't too bad, "cool cool" meant mild annoyance, and "cool cool cool" meant "FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE RIGHT NOW."

He'd usually escalate through these stages the longer you talked. "Cool." "Cool cool." "Cool cool cool." "That's all I've got, boss!"

Remarkable, but true, apparently. I picked up my 13 year old daughter from the gym the other day and she asked "Dad, are you cross with me?", which I wasn't at all. It turned out that I'd put a full stop at the end of my text message to her agreeing to pick her up.

13 year olds use the word 'cross'?

Yep. Mine does, anyway. From near London, UK.

That's one of those words that sound formal to American English speakers but not most others.

My 2 year old does, though he picked it up from Thomas the Tank Engine.

It's an British thing, in my understanding. I've never heard an American say it, but I see it in English literature all the time. I can only assume it's a regular, everyday word there.

Reminds me of something I noticed in comics - you never put a period at the end of a speech bubble, but you can (and must, if applicable) put a question mark or an exclamation mark there. But there are times in Calvin & Hobbes where a few sentences fit into the bubble, and they have periods between them, but still never at the end.

It just belies the true purpose of periods: to separate two different sentences. So yes, it must mean something if it's there when it doesn't need to be.

Exactly, in IM newline is a substitute for the full stop.

I almost always use full grammar and punctuation, even in texts, and often in IMs. I'm weird like that. I hope I'm not coming across as angry or stern without realizing it.

Or you come across as old. I do it all the time, as well, and that's something I've been told. (I'm over 50.)

I'm sure I would, were I not a sprightly twentysomething. Which is why I'm a bit surprised at the phenomenon described in the article, as I haven't noticed it. I'm unsure whether it's being overblown in importance for the sake of a story, or whether it's something that has been going completely over my head. Maybe it's more of a thing among modern teens who are growing up with smartphones in their pockets?

My text speak disappeared the moment I got Swype, and typing full words was hardly any harder than the abbreviations. Perhaps not using text speak is a sign of age, but it may also just be a momentary input-device anomaly too.

Right! I think in the future certain folks will be speaking pidgin txt while the rest of us that can afford the nicer phones or keyboards will use real words.

This is not even close to true among my peer group -- 20- and 30-something, middle class, educated Midwesterners. Nor is it true on any of the message boards I frequent online. So this may be an interesting anthropological datum about some segment of the population (teenagers? the poor? uneducated? the author and his wife?), but it doesn't generalize.

Punctuation is important, and sufficiently literate people recognize that. Since our society is getting more literate (or at least compared to a hundred years ago, not sure if literacy has been improving lately), I imagine this phenomenon is getting less likely, not more.

I'm at the end (29) of your group and most of us (my personal peers) very rarely use punctuation in informal conversations (AIM, irc, hipchat).

Assuming it's a literacy issue is a bit offensive.

My formal email/hackernews/reddit etiquette has absolutely nothing to do with my informal etiquette. I'd wager most of my personal story is based on growing up surrounded by IRC in elementary school. There are points where I have to rail in my "stream of consciousness" style of type during informal discussions.

I'm in a similar group (I'm not, but my peers are), and we all use full punctuation and proper grammar in our private IMs. We are all fairly well educated, and members of a profession where professional communication is a must.

Anecdote is not data, etc.

My point was that his attempt to not generalize, whilst generalizing (the poor? the uneducated?) was a bit offensive.

I don't really care, just figured I'd point out that there are also educated engineers/architects out there who don't punctuate during informal speak.

Personally my feeling on it is- "big fuckin' deal."

I wasn't trying to offend. In my experience, the kids who didn't read enough tended to think proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation weren't important, even in the days before texting and IMs. As they grew up and began to use the English language in a less superficial fashion, they started to see the importance of writing properly.

I've seen multiple friends go through this phase, at different points in their lives. One (a disabled guy who doesn't work -- he's a great friend though, I hate calling him out), still refuses to spell, capitalize, or punctuate. Everything he writes is just an unformatted list of misspelled words. Not coincidentally, this is the only friend who doesn't read for work or pleasure. All he reads is facebook statuses and the weather channel.

Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but in my experience, people start out thinking punctuation and spelling are matters of formality, eschewing it as the concern of old folks and authority figures, but eventually come to realize it is about readability. But maybe there's a social signalling that I'm unfamiliar with:

this note is short and readability isnt a concern as much as signalling im not a stuffy outsider

While this note (and the rest of this post) is something I want you to consider, and therefore the utmost importance is legibility, readability and clarity.

You're bringing up spelling errors and things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument that the article author presented. They don't mention improper spelling at all. They don't mention education or lack thereof.

They're specifically talking about whether or not "personality" should be shown through a message, and if it is or isn't, how it can be misconstrued. As in, to some people (contrary to your experience) seeing a full stop indicates formality, or anger, and to some people not using capitalization and not using punctuation infers a lack of professionalism.

Periods are not optional in readable English. Period. The rest, spelling, capitalization, are all there for the same reason -- readability.

Seeing an unpunctuated piece of writing doesn't make me think "Gee, good thing they're not mad at me", it makes me think "Gee, they didn't care enough to make this readable". Which, for some circumstances, is probably fine. I apologize for the "uneducated" remark. You just write differently (albeit only in certain informal contexts apparently) than any literate person I know.

The rest of the punctuation-emotion the short article described predates the internet and texting, like using question marks if you're unsure (I turn left here?), or exclamation points for emphasis (Yes!!). What I'm disputing is the "don't bother using a period if you're not angry" phenomenon. It's not my experience that literate adults do this. You and the article disagree. Fair enough. Learn something new everyday.

The author is explicitly referring to instant messaging, SMS, and the like -- modes of communication that are much more similar to spoken conversation than previous forms of text communication. I have definitely seem some of the trends noted by the article. I think you are getting caught up thinking about popular online mediums that can be more similar to letters and publications (you mention message boards). Taking the time for proper punctuation and formatting is more important when using these mediums.

How can I get a job making up stuff like this? Or is the author just self-deluded?

I think the dropped punctuation isn't due to semi-literate people, but is due to pressure from them.

As a complete-sentence/full-punctuation texter who has been known to text a semicolon, I've noticed that most sloppy texters conform to my posture after about three texts, because they can tell that I'm not going to loosen up and drop punctuation and spelling, and they probably fear they'll be judged badly. The only people I know that don't adjust are the people that I know actually don't know how to spell or use punctuation well.

When the flexible adjusting texters text the semi-literate texters - if they start in a complete/full posture, I bet they adjust towards sloppiness (as I sometimes feel a pressure to in that situation) in order not to appear stuck-up or judgmental. Also, the first text is often a greeting, and formal greetings are not really a thing (at least in the US) anymore, so there's actually more leeway to start a conversation sloppily. Especially when it's a probe to see if someone is available ("hey"), rather than a fully formed idea. "Hey." seems a lot weirder in that context than "hey", because the word 'hey' isn't a sentence.

The pressure to not seem stuck up or mean might simply be more dominant amongst flexible texters than the fear of being judged. I think that says something nice about people.

I mostly use the dot randomly and it doesn't mean anything. Although, I'll use ALL CAPS if I want to drive a point through. Interesting though that a dot can have so much meaning.

Seems rather generational and perhaps somewhat geographical as well. Perhaps more prevalent in the US? I'm not sure how this would even reliably work - you're rather relying on automatic wrapping never looking like a line break, etc. Peculiar, for sure.

It would probably be a little interesting to do a study on changes in grammar/punctuational usage based on keystroke requirements. Having to flip to a different onscreen keyboard mode for a character would, I imagine, lessen the attraction of characters that needed that. Same with capitalisation, obviously, which I always assumed to be the driver behind all lower-case SMS messages in general. A full stop doesn't seem like it would be a candidate though, except line break = 1 char, full stop + space = 2...

Edit: Extra thought. If that was actually true, and it's changing people's _style_ of communication, does that essentially act as a kind of Sapir-Whorf hypothesis for group communications when this is in effect?

I've never heard of such a convention. With the exception of the occasional error or typo, I use correct grammar and punctuation in all of my text messages.

Situationally, it could be angry, but there are other reasons to end your sentences with a period. I think the real problem is that the short-text medium makes it hard to accurately convey emotion in the same way that tone and body language do, and so things like periods, emoticons, interjections, exclamation points, and phrasing have to carry that load.

I don't know if it's generational (being 32 here), but fullstops in realtime conversations (email is different) always seemed used to highlight annoyance or mild anger indeed (perhaps because it emphasizes that you want to end conversation).

It's similar to replying "k" (or a single word) to someone who sends you a full sentence.

One small caveat: I was referring to single-sentence messages. Full stops with multiple sentences just fine, but you then enter "wall of text" territory.

I see this, along with the many meanings of "lol" [0] from people who are just a few years younger than I am (34), but very rarely from anyone my age or older.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoF2vdLxsVQ

I do a significant portion of my communication over IM and SMS, but I have literally never considered or even heard that periods mean anything specific like this.

My kids have mentioned how adults always end messages (especially facebook postings) with "...". I wonder how that started?

This article leads me to believe most of my friends likely think I'm an asshole (if they subscribe to this way of thinking).

I'm old-fashioned. I'll keep writing in complete sentences on my instant messages unless I am making a mistake.

That is a very long article to describe the obvious difference between writing and text-based chatting.

This is nothing new, it's been that way since the days of IRC, and probably other channels before that.

If the author were to discuss this subject with another human being in casual conversation he wouldn't do it in the exact form of this article.

There's no fundamental change happening here, just using language in a different way in different context.

There's no obvious difference.

I was immediately annoyed when reading the first caption, which confuses "roll" with "role".

Its such mallarky that comments are already closed on the article.

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