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Comment by joeguilmette | Hacker News Reader

any advice for non-hackers trying to start up?

our rough plan is to find a hacker to make a beta/demo for us based on our design, and ride that demo into seed funding, which we'll use to hire some hackers, and ride that into a VC.

are we missing something? it's obviously a bit different than what this crowd generally does, but, do you see any fundamental flaws in this approach?

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I would suggest laying out your design in html using a WYSIWYG tool like DreamWeaver. Also write down the "business rules" for each page like "user signs up here, is provisioned an account, is sent an email, and then is forwarded to the administration area"

Then hire someone off of Craigslist (or similar venue) to add a backend to it. If you could spend one or two thousand you could get enough put together to have a demo to show others.

right now what we're doing is 1 step below that.

we're laying everything out in this program called conceptdraw, hoping we can give that document to a developer and be like "see, this is what we want."

that's a great suggestion though, we might end up having to do that.

I'd strongly recommend making at least some sort of visual wireframe, whether it's in powerpoint, on paper, in dreamweaver, etc. Chances are you have a general idea of what you want the first version to look like, and showing the developer what you have in mind will both make it easier for him and make it more likely that he'll make what you want.

i mean, we're making a very specific page by page layout in conceptdraw.

it seems people have a lot to say about this, which is great. i'll probly put up a standalone discussion thread in a bit.

we understand it's going to be damn near impossible to find someone to make a perfect, usable product. that's not what we want.

we want someone to build us an ugly, barely functioning beta, just enough to get a few users on, in closed beta, to prove that it works and such. we just want a demo.

No offense, but I would have posted almost the exact same "advice" as a sarcastic joke.

If you follow that advice, make sure that you don't make the mistake of thinking that you can build the real service on top of whatever the guy from craigslist throws together.

I don't think you'll have much luck unless you can find one or more coders who're as excited about your idea as you are, and who you respect enough to treat as equals.

I've seen a few friends take coding jobs like the one you're planning to fill, and while they got their pay, the people who hired them never truly got what they wanted.

I knew of one such instance where a bunch of MBAs outsourced their idea to a single Indian coder. He did a passable job, but the app was full of bugs. And that's when they realized that a .war file doesn't contain source code.

You can't replace knowing what the code does and if the code is good code. However you can get passable demo code from anyone. I believe the poster was talking about a small spend to get a demo not build FaceBook with millions of users.

I'd suggest finding someone who is a good coder and if he is not interested in working for you, ask him for a recommendation. I am based in Bangalore and see first hand the horrific results that occur when people pick the cheapest person/team from a webpage. The best coders don't advertise on Craigslist

if anyone on YC News wants a reccomendation of good coders from Bangalore, write to me at my email id. (No you don't have to pay me, - I have enough on my plate already- and yes you should have an idea exciting to hackers).

There's a gem buried in one of the responses: "I don't think you'll have much luck unless you can find one or more coders who're as excited about your idea as you are, and who you respect enough to treat as equals."

Why would anyone competent join you on the terms that you've described? (There's a Dilbert about a company that wants to pay industry standard salaries but expects to have above average talent.)

well i mean, we'd be paying the beta developer in equity, so if they are excited and passionate about the idea, then it should be a nice fit.

I didn't get the impression that you saw that person as a founder.

I'm in the same boat... I'm a technical person (read sys admin type) but not a hacker... I've even built my own company from the ground up (a trading company so it's nothing technical) and was able to make a living...

I've a bunch of (software/service) startup ideas but no idea where to begin... Most ppl I know are not hackers so I've considered just learning how to code myself, but I don't know how long it'll take... at this point I'm just wondering what I should do...

I've even considered applying for that entry level support job xobni posted here last week (btw are you guys still hiring... ? haha... ) just so I can get some experience in an YC startup environment... since most software startup only hires hackers...

yes, we are, but that position is likely filled. please email matt.brezina at xobni

thanks... I'll keep checking your site incase you guys decide to hire more non-hackers.. :p

I would suggest trying, nay, struggling, to learn to hack for a month or two. Learn a cool new language, like Ruby (it's actually easier than, 'production languages', but it's cooler). Make an effort to build things yourself. Put enough effort into the technical side so that you might be able to notice technical brilliance for yourself, and so that you can make informed decisions regarding hiring and project directions.

If you are interested in learning to program, then by all means, find a language that suits you and begin working on problems you want to solve. If you are interested in programming only insofar as it facilitates building your company, attempting to learn to program will be an exercise in frustration. Working out the details of a great idea is difficult enough in and of itself, let alone trying to do so using languages or technologies that you aren't comfortable with.

Forget about learning to code, there are experts out there that will do it better than you ever could. And they don't have to cost much money by the way. The problem is how you decide who to go with. I still recommend personal contact rather than long distance Internet...

At FairSoftware.net, we are working on a solution for your problem. Just hold your breath for a few more months, thanks :-)

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