I wanted to work at Apple really bad, and now not so much. | Hacker News Reader

I wanted to work at Apple really bad, and now not so much.

medium.com

94 pointsHectorRamos68 comments

I'm sorry to be the adult here, but this is a really childish way to handle what amounts to a problem with your supervisor. There are ways to deal with this that don't involve jeopardizing your (and your contracting firm's) image and then throwing a temper tantrum online.

Other than the shitty boss, the other problems were silly (hours, commute, meetings). Were you really surprised by the commute? This is something you should've known beforehand.

Some jobs suck, either try to fix it or leave. But don't act like a baby.

Wow. You had me thinking, "If you had a bad experience at Apple, I should look you up and invite you to interview here where I work."

Right up until the part where you walked out without trying to talk to your boss, your boss's boss, or your contracting company.

Whether you leave should be a reflection on the work environment. How you leave should be a reflection on you. Better luck next time - perhaps something less corporate?

Did anyone else notice how his leaving without notice was unprofessional, but none of what led up to that decision is being labeled unprofessional?

Yeah, it's funny how that works.

You control what you can control, and there are professional ways to deal with conflict in the workplace. Ragequitting is what you do on IRC. When you're 14.

I mean, he should have ensured an orderly handoff of his projects and maybe sotto voce talked to his agency about the possibility of an internal reassignment, but yeah, in that situation if those hadn't worked, giving your "2 weeks" and being walked out immediately is totally reasonable. (These contracts usually contain no notice provision).

That's probably because they read the whole article. In my opinion, walking out on a job without giving notice denotes a lack of judgement. So immediately I wonder if those "insults" from the boss really were insults.

He also complained about the commute and the long hours, but he knew about those and agreed to them before taking the job.

Finally, he makes no mention of trying to speak with HR or the agency that got him the job to resolve the problem. In fact he makes no mention of trying to resolve the problem. Granted he was contract and claimed those who were on contract and rocked the boat faced reprisals, but if you get to the point where you are ready to quit, who cares? try and make it better and if it gets worse, leave like you were going to do anyway.

No designer walks out on Apple lightly. But sometimes things are bad enough that you can tell you arent in the right place.

All of what led up to that was labeled as unprofessional. That was the whole point of the post.

Wow.

There are a lot of negative comments that I find surprisingly imbalanced in how they view the employer-employee relationship.

Employers have the balance of power in almost any working relationship, and should take some responsibility in creating satisfactory employment conditions. Allowing bad management to mishandle employees is an abuse of that power. If a new employee doesn't choose to speak to HR, it's most likely because HR are doing a crap job of making new employees aware of what support they offer, if any.

Apple (the company) certainly wouldn't think for one second about breaching contracts where the benefit outweighed the risk of legal consequences. We might say "that's just business". So, why should you personally care about breaching contracts if turning up to work has such a strongly negative effect on your life?

I personally want to say to this guy: well done, you did the right thing for yourself. Find yourself better employment.

Sorry that this job didn't work out, and I'm sorry it was so bad that you felt you had to take a (small, temporary) hit to your reputation, but if you needed to get out of there so bad, it was worth it: best of luck for the future :)

You care about a breach of contract because you're a professional. Honestly he probably wasn't in violation of any contracts in the first place.

No one is being negative because they think doing the right thing for yourself is wrong. It's a matter of common courtesy.

There are a lot of options when you have a crappy boss. The first of which is to actually talk to your boss yourself, and then go over his/her head if they don't respond. If you can't reconcile after that, then feel free to quit, but in my opinion you should do it to someone's face.

There might not be so many negative comments if the author had done a better job of defining what was so bad.

What exactly was the producer saying? No examples given. Why didn't he even attempt to speak to HR? No reason given. What did his co-workers say about the situation? What was the catalyst for walking out on that particular day? ie. Why not take a day off to consider options?

I had to make a lot of assumptions to fill in the blanks.

From the information given, it sounds like he didn't like his producer and wasn't happy about the commute. Neither of which is remarkable.

He did ... insults, extreme micromanaging, etc.

Never cited explicit examples or quotes.

Yawn. Really that is the best you can offer?

He did. He cited examples of the boss micromanaging him and how that occurred. Where you there? How would extra juice detail validate his case? How would you know that he didn't make up the detail? Do you demand voice recordings?

Good job contradicting yourself.

I'm sure there's a subreddit out there somewhere where you'd fit in beautifully. Best of luck. :)

Contrary to popular belief, HR departments are not psychic. Just like in programming, they can't solve problems they don't know about.

Think of notifying HR like filing a bug report or support ticket for broken human behavior.

I will make the same point again but using your analogy:

A new employee must be given sufficient advice/training on how to file a bug report.

If he had valid cause to walk out, surely he could've gone to HR with his grievances against his boss? Since we're only getting one side of the story here, I have no way of knowing what parts of his story are true and what's been embellished. The story we're hearing is that a guy's boss was a jerk, but what if he himself was being an insufferable diva and his boss had no intention of renewing his contract for that reason?

For some reason I don't feel like Apple suffered a great loss here.

And HR is going to give a contract (via agency) employee the time of day why?

Because that's pretty much their job.

Even if his paycheck is through the agency, the agency contracts him out to Apple and he's just sitting there at their desk?

He's describing a harassment problem with his boss, an Apple employee, pretty sure Apple HR is the point of contact for this scenario.

Let's suppose he was being sexually harassed by his boss--do you think he'd go to the agency to resolve this?

Right, that is complete fantasy. Everybody involved held a better hand than this guy, and he made the right decision - choose a different game.

> If he had valid cause to walk out, surely he could've gone to HR with his grievances against his boss?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA! <sniff> Ah, you youngsters ... I needed a good laugh.

HR works for the company. Their goal is to keep the company out of legal hot water. Any other goal is secondary--solving employee problems doesn't even register.

Should he have stuck it out? Yeah, probably, but there are some bosses that are beyond unacceptable--and the boss was likely to shaft him on a review if he is that bad.

Yes, he should have talked to the contracting company before doing this. That way they would have known to steer their folks clear of that asshole boss--and they could have probably gotten his contract reassigned.

Legal difficulty includes avoiding cases of constructive dismissal.

Also, not sure how it works in the US but employers owe their employees a duty of care to protect them from harm and this includes bullying and undue stress.

If that's your view of HR and what your company's HR department is like, I pity you.

HR is certainly working for the company, but the whole point is that they help mediate issues to avoid litigation. In order to do this, they need to provide as much assistance to employees as possible. In fact, it's in the company's best interest for their HR department to offer as much help as possible to employees.

If a HR department just brushed off complaints, it could be catastrophic for the company if that employee took legal action.

Your view of HR is extremely narrow.

Nope it is extremely factual. HRs job is to protect the company from stupid lawsuits and labor law violations. HR is not an employee advocate.

A lot of people think the role of HR is to help the company defend itself from lawsuits. Wrong. Defending lawsuits is general counsel's job.

HR's job is to prevent lawsuits. That means dealing with employee problems-- the earlier the better.

One way they deal with problems is to fire people or terminate contracts. But since this guy was willing to walk out anyway, he had nothing to lose.

Never, ever take "prestige" instead of pay. Because prestige is only worth anything if you can cash it in. So what does this mean, it means the sort of people attracted to "prestigious" companies are only there to get their tickets punched so they can get a more lucrative job elsewhere in a year or two. That creates a weird dynamic.

I see people saying he should have given two weeks. Why? Companies don't give you 2 weeks notice when they fire you or lay you off. With that said, he should have talked to his boss. You are an adult. Yes, tell him that you don't find his jokes funny. It could be that he's trying to be funny without being insulting. If it continues then you can say for sure that the guy is an asshole. He handled it badly by not communicating. After talking to his boss, he could have reported him to HR. He could have also sort for openings in other departments. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I don't think his not giving 2 weeks is a wrong. The only reason I would give 2 weeks is that I'm in the middle of a project that my leaving will disrupt. However, should I be very uncomfortable and after having escalated my issue to the proper channels and no response? I would quit on the stop. Life is too short to be afraid of a big company. Quitting is your way of firing the company especially if you are of value. Good employees don't leave companies for the most part, they tend to leave bad management.

He wrote also this "My coworkers that stood their ground and set boundaries seemed to end up on a shit list of sorts and were out of the inner circle of people that kissed the producer’s ass."

So, I do not think it was a case of misunderstanding.

You are missing the power relationship here: He wasn't even an Apple employee. HR was not an option.

While I understand that nobody should have to work for a boss like that, I don't understand why he didn't give two weeks' notice.

He would have gotten out of there quickly enough without damaging any other relationships and, being on a term contract, there's a good chance he would have been asked to leave immediately anyway.

Indeed.

I think he was trying to make a statement. I agree in the long-term what you suggest is better, but I also understand the short-term impulse to say "fuck you" with action.

I don't think walking out like that is professional. Sure, some companies can their employees without a notice, but that is not professional too.

You definitely should've spoken with either his supervisor, or even the recruiting company. Apple is a large entity, and even though you didn't enjoy the meetings or the commute, fact is that's how they operate there.

I've had bosses who were like that and worse. One boss would shake my chair when I'm working just to get my attention.

Maybe it is the writing style but I find the author self entitled.

If you take a job and it turns out it isn't what it seems you don't resolve anything by just walking out. Being impulsive rarely gets you anywhere.

That said I've heard from friends that the working environment at Apple is tough.

Speaking under anonymity, as I'm currently employed by Apple. I want to state that my opinions are mine and mine alone, and form from my experiences with the company.

This guy is an unprofessional whiner, and I would never consider hiring him.

Short list of what annoys me from his article:

- He was hired as a contractor under the retail division, but his overbragging would lead you to believe otherwise.

- As soon as he was picked up as a contractor, he goes and updates everything to allude that he's employed by Apple. As someone who spent my first years also as a contractor (I've since been hired), this is incredibly unprofessional and against the code of ethics. At Apple you learn that you're part of a team, that you are just one piece of the greater picture, so to brag so much when you are such a small and new piece, is incredibly conceited. I would have never let him work on anything secret or prolific - he seems like the guy who would hog all the credit.

- As someone who contracted for over a year, if I had misgivings about my manager, I would have spoken up. If I couldn't have gained the courage to talk with the manager directly, I would have gone to his superiors, or to at least the contact person at the contracting agency. From my experience, Apple's management hierarchy is built to facilitate things like this. I'm sure his boss's boss was around, and all he had to do is speak up if he really had such strong grievances about his treatment.

- I find it hard to believe that he was really worked that hard. Additionally, if he had such strong reservations about wanting to have normal work hours and being home at an early hour, he should not have picked a job that required a 45+ minute commute.

So not only does this guy quit in a wholly unprofessional manner, but now he has the audacity to go all over the Internet to whine about it.

Good luck finding a new job, buddy, at least you have good design chops. But I can't see any corporate company wanting to hire him after this, and I can't imagine he'd have better work hours at a startup.

One of the top reasons that people leave a company is their direct supervisor. Even a good company culture and great pay can be overturned by a difficult boss.

The takeaway for entrepreneurs is - hire your managers very carefully, and promote your staff into management roles very, VERY carefully. Just because someone is a great developer/designer/marketer/product manager, does not mean they will make a great manager.

And the takeaway for employees is: give your employer a chance to solve your problem. Don't assume that everyone knows and intentionally tolerates the bad behavior that is bothering you.

Nope. Life is too short. As he pointed out it was taking away from what he discovered he really wanted: a family life.

He really needed to talk to his contracting company and tell them what was going on. They generally will be able to help or at least extract you with a minimum of professional destruction.

On a secondary level, someone needs to step up and tell the next level about this type of boss. They probably won't listen, but this boss is hurting others and someone needs to push the first domino.

Bad bosses are everywhere. Two weeks notice would have been a better way to go. People quit companies because of bad bosses. If he didn't even talk to HR or escalate anything, then shame on him. His impact will be minimal and everyone will move on instead of solving the larger issue.

why bother? It was clear that the boss was considered excellent by the company.

I would have not bothered to send the email that is my only feedback.

"Silence encourages other bad behavior and contributes to a toxic atmosphere."

Sound familiar?

It should. That's a quote from one of your previous comments.

Sending a parting shot to someone who doesn't care is not breaking the silence. The boss just deletes the email and points to it as proof that Jordan was a bad fit, such an email is a waste of energy and a weapon to be used against the sender

Also I should add.... Jordan is not being silent... He spoke out on medium where the power relationship is more balanced and in a venue where his voice will be heard.

He is warning others to make a different choice and to stay away.

While I'm sure he thought it was a story worth telling, walking out without making any attempt at reconciliation was just unprofessional.

What's worse, potential clients are going to Google his name, find this and then wonder if he'll bail on a project as well.

People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses in most cases.

I've heard a lot about Apple's internal secrecy, and culture of working very hard, but I really hope this horrible boss was an outlier.

I've worked with multiple teams in multiple divisions, and I've never experienced a manager like the one described. In fact, Apple has had the most professional managers I have ever had the experience of working with.

I've known both a few utter tools at Apple (who got forced out) and a few people currently there (who are amazing).

I guess what I'm most interested in is: does Apple have a way to get rid of bad managers? Amazon doesn't seem to, from what I've heard, and Google has some who become "politically entrenched" and thus hard to eliminate. "Only have great managers" is probably an impossible goal, but some kind of correction process is both necessary and probably a reasonable thing to implement.

I'll admit in the corporate world it's a slow process to weed out any bad apples (pun not intended), but it does happen. There's accountability on every level.

I knew of a manager who wasn't very good, and once his directs escalated the issue, it was only a month or so until he was out the door.

There's also a sort of probation bad employees can be placed under, but I hear once you're in that boat, it's nearly impossible to get out from it.

I can understand why he didn't put in notice. Who wants to work 2 weeks under a boss that already treats you badly once they know you're leaving? That would be miserable, and for some people, the shame of leaving without notice is less than the pain from facing that manager for another two weeks.

Working your notice is not about a oiding shame but about avoiding lawsuits for breach of contract.

I wonder how much of this tension was caused by going through an agency versus being a direct hire. The very short interview and subsequent time locked contract seem bad.

It seems like most of the tension was caused by having a terrible boss.

They may have matched him with someone different after a full interview loop though. Did he even interview with or meet his manager before accepting or starting?

This sounds remarkably like my brief experience as a contract Java dev for a certain large semiconductor company in the Portland area.

The only thing that matters is what his contract contained in the way of the notice. "Two weeks notice" is quite obsolete these days, given how companies treat workers anymore. If it isn't in the contract, then to hell with that and any idea about "treating a company with respect" or some of the naive stuff people are commenting on. Respect runs both ways.

"Two weeks" was de rigueur when I started my career - but I am old and the social environment or relationship between capital and labor has changed dramatically in the 25 years I've been in IT. Companies will do whatever they can get away with, even if it might be illegal-ish, and especially if it is a badly run company run by jackasses. Apple... well, I would never take a paycut just to work at Apple; I understand his enthusiasm, and the chance to get "Apple" on your resume, but if the situation was as intolerable as he says, then I certainly wouldn't say "tough it out"

Also, the logic behind two weeks notice was that payroll, in the old days, was two weeks behind the time you've currently spent on the job. So you had to stick around for two weeks to let that catch up (and wrap up projects, transfer knowledge, etc). Logically, at this point, you'd take your unused vacation. That logic doesn't apply anymore - and also contract workers are different than full time employees, so the rules are different.

But he should have spoken to HR at least, or some other boss, if only to get it down on paper exactly why he was going to leave - at least to prevent them from claiming damages or such due to his unexpected departure.

I am reading Peopleware right now. This really sets the boss to be the worst of the worst.

It seems like every organization practices some sort of hazing or 'bootcamp' techniques for new people. It's a way of testing people out to see how they react and it also seems to be human nature to do so. He didn't pass the test so some other contractor will get hired full-time.

No, it is not normal for an organization to haze new hires and I am sorry if that is the only behavior you have ever experienced in your career. If you ever find yourself in that kind of environment, you need to transfer to another department or leave the organization. In the case of legal harassment, you may report the individual to HR, even if you are a contractor.

Under proper management, new hires are treated like gold. They are, after all, the future of an organization. New hires would be raised like they were part of a family and an abundance of good will should be provided.

> No, it is not normal for an organization to haze new hires ...

It's a common phenomenon, and "normal" is a problematic criterion in any case. If by consensus people deem it useful as part of a spectrum of acceptable behaviors, then an appeal to "normal" loses all meaning.

I agree with you that people who find it upsetting or demeaning should leave, but by doing so they may pass up an opportunity to change the world. Not all human breakthroughs are accompanied by everyone behaving according to the strictest standards of decorum. Just ask an astronaut -- I'm sure she'll agree.

> Under proper management, new hires are treated like gold. They are, after all, the future of an organization.

In an ideal world there wouldn't be office politics either. People would advance on merit. I don't live in an ideal world.

This isn't about Apple. This is about a shitty commute and a bad producer.

Excellent. Apple needs to lose more people to get the message.

I remember realizing in the mid-2000s how much I liked the things Apple made (still do), but would never want to work there. There are reasons why the things they make are so nice.

I deduct no points for his walking out without notice. Somehow, I think they will be okay.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com