Comment by notacoward | Hacker News Reader

Comment by notacoward | Hacker News Reader

25 rockstars, eh? And $70K (fully loaded) on six bad hires who lasted a median 53 days. Let's assume that the salary distribution for those new hires is similar to that for those rockstars. In the absence of other information, we'll also have to assume that the median period of employment for those six is also the average. So we're talking about rockstar salaries (fully loaded) in the range of $84K. Where can I get rockstars that cheap?

Also, he never really says what was wrong with these employees. Vague doubts about "fit"? "Get under your skin"? "Don't mesh"? All sounds like a discrimination or wrongful-termination suit waiting to happen. Anybody who is in any way dealing with HR should know that firing someone requires extensive documentation of actual wrongdoing, not just this weak "feels wrong" crap. I'd be very surprised if that's less the case in Canada than in the US.

This author really needs to worry less about cover letters, and more about why his company is having these cultural-fit problems. Maybe putting "Like to work late?" and "Test your ping pong and foosball skills" on the Careers page doesn't attract the right kind of employees. I'd love to hear what some of those ex-employees found once they got there, especially regarding the little Pocket Napoleon of a COO.

>Where can I get rockstars that cheap?

Not likely on the coasts... at least not that many at one time.

>Vague doubts about "fit"? "Get under your skin"? "Don't mesh"?

Agreed, culture is important, but an absolute fit isn't essential either. For fscks sake, sometimes a good workplace cultural value is tolerance for your co-workers idiosyncrasies.

  sometimes a good workplace cultural value is
  tolerance for your co-workers idiosyncrasies

Very true. At the same time, having a boss with these types of idiosyncrasies is like seeing an exit sign.

There's another danger sign. Just what does a rockstar mean anyway? The rock stars that I know about are not the smartest kids on the block. They seem to end up getting cheated by music producers and hangers-on, then graduate to ruining their health with various drugs and usually die an early death. That sounds like 180 degrees opposite of what you would want to hire in a developer.

Instead look for people who like to tinker and fix and build things. People whose personal lives are stable and sane.

>>Just what does a rockstar mean anyway?

Like you said. Its basically a guy who sacrifices his whole life to make you rich and expects to get nothing in return.

When doing calculations, it is better to use the average of 75 days. So 70K paid for six employees for 75 days (given in the article), which is about a fifth of a year. So 70*5/6 = 58K per employee per year.

I think it was 70k each, surely.

Nope. He said the average employment length was 75 days, so that 70K was total. Also, they're based in Toronto so that's CAN $.

75 * 6 devs = 450 dev-days, or 1.23 dev-years. 70K/1.23 = 56.9K. According to Google, that's $51K USD per year.

Yeah, I can't imagine why rockstars aren't beating a path to his door.

> firing someone requires extensive documentation of actual wrongdoing

In the US? Maybe to help avoid frivolous lawsuits, but barring having signed a contract stating otherwise, you don't need any wrongdoing to terminate someone's employment.

My understanding in most locales:

Terminating an employee without cause is acceptable for at will employment, but it means you will be paying them unemployment.

Firing is terminating an employee with just cause and means you don't have to pay unemployment.

If this guys is letting people go because they don't fit into his super-culture, that is the former and not the latter.

That's my understanding as well. I would assume if the termination reasons are as vague as this post, that those people he let go are eligible for unemployment.

I've actually been involved in the evidence-gathering process that would have led to firing someone - a peer, not a subordinate - if he hadn't taken the offer to quit first. It turns out that avoiding those frivolous lawsuits requires concrete and specific evidence of incompetence, insubordination, misappropriation of company resources, etc. We're talking actual emails, not remembered hallway conversations. Direct refusal to do as they're told, not grudging half-compliance. It's a lot harder than most people think. Maybe some companies don't do their diligence and manage to get away with it, but at most startups the investors are likely to demand a much more comprehensive paper trail for anything that might incur liability. "At will" doesn't provide total immunity to lawsuits.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/employment/at_will.html http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf

Even in non-right to work states, firing in the first 90 days is generally no problem since most put it in the contract as a evaluation period.

Not that I am defending the article, I find the vague cultural fit and sweatshop vibe to be bad. I've watched amazing coders turn to crap after a couple of grind weeks.

$84K isn't cheap outside the Valley

Not in general, but we're talking rock stars here. Top of their profession. Best in the business. Also, that's fully loaded - not just salary. That's definitely very cheap in Boston, almost certainly in Toronto (where the OP is), and many other places as well. Sure, it might work in rural Iowa or in some less fortunate country, but that's not the correct frame of reference.

It's still not cheap - Here in Seattle.

Companies like google cause a salary imbalance here - they pay Bay Wages - in seattle.

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