Boeing #12 | Hacker News Reader

Boeing #12

flightaware.com

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Yes, this was a real flight.

Here are some progress pics from earlier today:

http://i.imgur.com/R1kERlg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YNMNnJr.png

More info for the curious: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/boeings-new-seahawks-themed-747...

From the article:

"We’ve been hearing a few people complain that Boeing is “wasting fuel,” by flying the 747-8 Freighter today in the “12″ pattern."

Jeez. People really will complain about anything these days.

Here comes the faux outrage for attention and feigned apology issued by a lawyer, just like the rest...

Well, they do what they want, but three hours and 20 minutes with a 747, does sound like a waste of fuel to me.

There are a huge number of test flights as part of integrating and certifying new parts. Or even just new algorithms. After passing simulation, want to make sure this new cooldown algorithm doesn't make the engine explode? Apply it to one of the 4 engines and go fly around for a few hours to simulate production load.

So this was probably a test flight that was going to happen anyways, just pick a clever route and now you have a huge promotional thing too!

> So this was probably a test flight that was going to happen anyways, just pick a clever route and now you have a huge promotional thing too!

You're exactly right. It's a new 747 freighter variant and was on a test flight.

Are you implying that every single passenger aboard a normal commercial flight is there for some absolutely necessary, useful purpose? I'd wager not, in which case a large quantity of the fuel used in the normal course of operations is also 'wasted' - or, at least, used sub-optimally - the passengers being the only reason the flights are undertaken in the first place.

"Are you implying that every single passenger aboard a normal commercial flight is there for some absolutely necessary, useful purpose?"

Are you implying that nobody should spend so much as a thousandth of a second hesitating before wasting trillions of dollars worth of a resource which represents 100% of the world supply that will ever be available, when retaining even a single ounce of that same resource could have been used to save the lives of 3 billion people?

(jeez, read what you're responding to and your response. I'm making fun of it with this post because your style of response is so ridiculous.)

No, I am not. You're right, nothing is absolutely necessary, there is not point arguing about this.

But let say that if I had to cancel one flight to save money / fuel, I would cancel this one rather than a standard flight.

But dude, football! And the twelfth man! And stuff!

>You're right, nothing is absolutely necessary, there is not point arguing about this.

Don't you hate when arguments get to this point?

You know what else isn't a waste of fuel? Dumping thousands of gallons of it onto the ground and burning it. I mean, who doesn't enjoy a good bonfire, right? You cannot prove that I don't!

Apparently, this route was the result of a test flight. Really the only legitimate explanation for something like this.

So you would cancel this test flight of a new 747 freighter variant and possibly end a multi million dollar program just because they flew it in the pattern of the number 12?

That sounds an awful lot like "we don't have enough time to test our code"

...and spending a few million on an advertising campaign is probably a waste to you too then huh..

Also, Boeing Logo: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE236/history/20120209/2...

19 hours, 12 minutes. Not bad!

How do they manage to make the lines so straight? Isn't the earth round? Do they know the exact projection flightaware uses and can match it?

Isn't it hard to constantly fly a slightly curved route?

It looks like flight aware is using Mercator... which is what I assume most navigational charts use. If it is Mercator, then straight lines on the map are lines of constant bearing in reality, so pretty straight forward to follow.

Actually, most aeronautical charts use the Lambert Conformal Conic Projection.

I'd guess that the reason it looks straight on flight aware is just that the distances are relatively small.

I love Hacker News - there is an expert on every conceivable topic posting here!

https://xkcd.com/977/

Why are we changing maps? I'm wondering where France really is.

The flight computers in a Boeing can track with an error of less than 500ft except in the most turbulent conditions. It's not a problem.

I think the premise was that the actual route flown might have been much more complicated than it looks, if the map projection used by the aircraft wasn't the same as that used by the tracking service.

...cool!

Not so hard when the guidance computer is telling you exactly when and how much to turn - or is doing it for you.

People in charge of the database is able to load arcs with a given radious. It's not possible to do it from the mcdu (the flight computer keyboard and display). I guess this was designed on the ground and then loaded at the aircraft.

since the flightplan shows a certain number of lat/long style waypoints you can assume they did this. Entering arcs in the FMS is somewhat possible (by approximation, i.e. multiple FIX<radial>/<distance> points); but entering these digits that way would be unpracticle (albeit NOT impossible).

Initially I looked at the site from the Iphone so I didn´t see the details. In fact is as you say, just waypoints set in a square way. The rounded corners is just the normal turning radio of the B747.

In theory you're right; but on the scale they flew this pattern; maintaining a constant heading will look like a straight line. Also, as mentioned in other replies; the map projection has a big impact on this (e.g. A lambert projection will show a constant heading as a curve).

Autopilot? Those letters look to be about 200 miles tall.

At that scale you could make errors of several hundred feet at each corner and they wouldn't be visible from such a zoomed out overview.

Maybe the pilot hacked the tracking system.

Not normally a sports fan, but living in Seattle while the Seahawks go to the Superbowl is tons of fun just because of all small ways the various techie industries are coming together.

E.g. seismic monitoring of CenturyLink Stadium (which is engineered to be one of the loudest), Boeing putting on this stunt, office buildings with "12" spelled out over multiple floors, 12-cent Starbucks.

Seattle is just a fun city to live in.

As someone who also lives in Seattle and is also not a sports fan, I have to agree.

As someone who lives in Seattle and is a huge sports fan, this is incredibly awesome!

You three should get together for the game :)

Always happy to see these guys in the news. The site is powered by Apache Rivet, which I helped work on. It never saw wide adoption, so the one big user always makes me pleased that it did take off somewhere.

oof, Tcl. props, but oof.

Tcl is a very nice language in many ways, both in terms of the language itself, and the extremely solid implementation.

http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html

Great article on Tcl, I wasn't familiar with it before but the event driven model and the ease of network programming is really appealing.

This is dedicated to the Seahawks' 12th man :)

http://deadspin.com/a-seahawks-747-is-currently-flying-a-gia...

A non-sports-fan-geek, I have no idea what the #12 means.

Its a reference to the "12th man", a commonly used phrase to describe Seattle Seahawks fans (Also Texas A&M, but thats another matter) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_man_%28football%29

It's an old common phrase for football fans in general. And by football I mean soccer, I guess american football adapted this term.

Very common in Cricket as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth_Man

But there, it has a different meaning. The twelfth man can play. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_cricket_terms#T:

Traditionally, the first substitute player who fields when a member of the fielding side is injured. In Test matches, twelve players are named to a team prior to the match, with the final reduction to eleven occurring immediately prior to play commencing on the first day.

Yes, a but is trademarked by Texas A&M and licensed (exclusively, I believe) to the Seattle Seahawks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_man_(football)#Texas_A.26M...

Correct. Texas A&M alumni here. Our 12th Man has a 90 year tradition. It was a bit of a shock moving to Seattle and seeing that they had a 12th Man too. It wasn't widely known at the school until the Seahawks went to the Super Bowl in 2005. Shortly afterwards the two teams reached an agreement that worked well for both of them.

The REAL #12 https://www.google.com/search?q=la+doce&client=safari&hl=en&... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boca_Juniors

It's the way that a lot of people live vicariously through sports superstars by fantasizing about being part of the team.

No, it's not. You are describing BIRGing, or somethings. #12 refers to supporting the team, including making noise in the stadium to affect the outcome of plays.

I didn't even know what BIRGing was before you posted your comment. I know what #12 is meant to refer to. My observation is that "BIRGing" often accompanies the whole "#12" thing.

This is your weekend to shine. Clean off the keyboard and prepare to tell everyone all the other things you're doing this Sunday.

In short : There's 11 players on the field, the fans represent the 12th player.

Never thought companies would do such things. Expedia did something as well-

http://m.imgur.com/a/ML3wn

You may or may not be aware, but this stuff is generally done on test flights where they need to be in the air for a certain amount of time but have no specific location they need to do it. Might as well spell something out in the sky while you're at it. I doubt Boeing would do this sort of thing otherwise, since it costs tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of dollars to keep a 747 in the air for hours.

Some flights tend to have interesting trajectories:

A350 test flying: http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=168559&filename=php...

787 test flying: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/498855/BOEING-787-DREAMLINER-LOGO-...

Cessna: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N750CX/history/20080307/1...

Gulfstream: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GLF17/history/20070206/15...

Boeing 747-8: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE523/history/20110802/1...

Norwegian holding pattern: http://imgur.com/nD2l3uk

They painted the plane too - so they clearly put some money into this in addition to what was needed for a test flight

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t31/1...

Boeing a sponsor of the Seahawks, and the aircraft is a freighter owned by Boeing and used for testing (equipment? possibly used to haul parts?). The livery doesn't appear to be just for the Superbowl, so it's probably a permanent marketing/PR piece for their local city.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2014-01-29-Boeing-747-8-Freighte...

I'm sure the (many, recent) tax breaks pay for it...

The tax breaks the Legislature just passed for Boeing are apparently the largest state-tax subsidy deal for a private company in American history.

Local pride, as thet say.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022245449_westneat13...

Well, it's a hat tip to their brethren who put all the public funds into the seahawks stadium...

Bribe, kickback, gift, hat tip, patronage. All a matter of perspective I suppose.

> The livery doesn't appear to be just for the Superbowl

It's new. There's some youtube footage of the same aircraft doing test flights a few months back. Plain white, and weathered, fuselage and tail.

I meant that the livery is evergreen, and isn't "Good luck at Super Bowl XLVIII!" They can fly it for years and it won't be dated.

> Plain white, and weathered

Maybe it needed a paint job anyway.

This was the first ever flight of this aircraft, so that is not the same airplane in those videos.

OK but the photograph was taken from another plane, which had no other reason to be in the air.

Well, a plane has to have paint. Another case of "Might as well spell something out while you're at it."

I wonder how much that really costs, though. The plane has to be painted one way or another, so you're paying for the design (which doesn't seem too involved here, since it's borrowing elements from elsewhere) and whatever extra work is involved with painting a more elaborate pattern.

Still, not entirely zero, you're right. I imagine the extra cost for the paint job came out of the marketing budget. Probably well worth it.

Planes do not have to be painted. Bare aluminum is pretty corrosion resistant. Many airlines strip most of the paint to save weight.

While bare aluminum saves weight, the TCO is higher:

"While the lighter weight of a polished airplane saves fuel costs [...] this savings is more than offset by the higher cost of washing, polishing, and painting a polished fuselage throughout its service life. The net operating cost of polished airplanes, calculated as a percentage of the total operating cost, is between 0.06 percent and 0.30 percent more than the total operating cost of fully painted airplanes."

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/texton...

Pure Al does form a passive layer, but apparently not 2024 Al alloy as used on aircraft (trades more strength for corrosion susceptibility).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_aluminium_alloy

Some corrosion pics still at http://connielinguscorrosion.blogspot.com/ .

> I doubt Boeing would do this sort of thing otherwise, since it costs tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of dollars to keep a 747 in the air for hours.

It was only 5.5h, pretty short compared to a 10h+ transatlantic flight (although in the latter case, it's the passengers who are paying for the fuel.)

That won't get them back their Google rankings.

What an awesome gesture. Go Seahawks!

What an awesomely lame waste.

You're right, they should take passengers on point A to point A test flights. Want to volunteer? No meals on board, and you stand a slight chance of dying, but it's better than surfing the Internet!

Brilliant advertising for Boeing. In the true spirit of what the Super Bowl is really about.

Curious what that flight would cost.

Net? Probably nothing. Boeing has lots of test flights to do just to rack up hours of operation and so forth so a flight like this easily fits into their budget of flights they have to do anyway.

Okay, so gross then?

747-800 burns about 2,900 gal of fuel per hour at cruise altitude and speed. This was done at 12,000 feet which probably doubled the fuel consumption. Without accounting for takeoff/climb fuel, we're looking at around 32,000 gallons of jet fuel. Cheapest fuel BFI is 5.59/gal so a good estimate for the total bill would be $178,880.00.

And you can almost double that number to take t/o and landing into account.

Thank you!

A very big number. :)

For everyone who's trying to say this was a waste of fuel please think about the purpose of test flights. In this instance they were testing a new freighter variant. How else do you expect to test and tune new aircraft/parts? Besides it's Boeings money to waste even if it was.

I realize it's the high desert, so few people live there, but I'm surprised all that airspace was open for such a flight. Aren't there any military installations around?

It reminds me of the old Tex Johnson 737 Barrel role. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

Boeing should have flown this route this over Denver, Colorado.

So anyway, if there's anyone else here who doesn't give the slightest fuck about football, and was wondering what this references:

http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/daily-buzz-12th-man-in...

...yep, total rubbish. But at least the Climate Change (LLC, TM, Patents Pending) we've been hearing about gets a boost from it. One plus is that it gives all of us non-interested people an interest: Whoever is playing against Seattle (Denver, I think) really needs to win this one.

Go Broncos!!! :)

I can confirm that #12 is still flying aimlessly around Snohomish County (or was, a couple hours ago)

Go Hawks!

Did they actually pay people to do this ?

How?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

GPS autopilot following a flight plan. Zoom in a little and you'll see the as-filed flight plan in a light blue dashed line.

what a waste of fossil fuels

Knowing nothing about aviation, I would guess this was a test flight that had to happen anyway.

Haha, troll pilot/navigator?

When you have a cheating team, you having nothing else to hold onto but the 12.

Yes, the Seattle Seahawks are the only team taking PEDs in the NFL. Side note: at least 2 of those suspensions were actually for narcotic drugs not PEDS, including Brandon Browner who is now suspended, leaving them without their second best corner. His offense? Smoking pot - while playing in the CFL. 4 years ago.

Let's call it even.

It's worth noting that the Broncos' best linebacker Von Miller was also suspended for 6 games for smoking pot (prior to it being legalized in Colorado) and then trying to cheat the drug test. Stupidity is not unique to any one team.

True - I'm actually assuming this is a 49ers fan commenting, so I wasn't making a comment in relation to Von Miller. To be fair, Browner is being suspended an entire YEAR for something he did before he was in the NFL that is now legal in the state he lives in and did NOT try to cover it up. Amazing.

As a life-long Seahawks fan and long-time season ticket holder, I'll correct some misconceptions.

First off, Browner was in the NFL prior to the incident. He actually started with the Broncos as an undrafted free agent out of college, then broke his arm in training camp and was ultimately cut. Unable to latch on with another NFL team, he started playing in Canada and was there for several years. When Pete Carroll was hired as the coach in Seattle, he inherited a lackluster roster and was looking to upgrade talent. He remembered Browner from Pac-10 (now Pac-12) college days (Browner played for Oregon State University, Pete Carroll coached USC), and gave him a try out. Browner made the team, became a starter.

After he was cut from Denver, he was reportedly broke, sleeping on friends couches and there was no reliable way to contact him (no cell phone). Once you're a member of the NFL player's union, you're obligated to take drug tests. What Browner didn't know (and most everyone, for that matter) was that unless you file your retirement papers, you're still under obligation to take the drug tests. Browner was supposed to take the drug tests, but without any way to contact him, he wasn't able to do so and didn't realize he was missing them. Missing a drug test automatically places one into "stage-3 offender" status, which basically means that if you fail any sort of drug test, you're automatically banned from the NFL (but can apply for reinstatement after a year - which is almost always granted).

So, what happened was is that he smoked weed and failed the test. Because he was placed in stage-3 due to his missed drug tests while he was in Canada, this failed drug test means he is suspended for a year and can apply for reinstatement after his suspension is up. It is devastating to him because he was on track to get a lucrative contract, as he is an above-average cornerback in the NFL. Now he will enter free-agency suspended for the better part of next year, and at the age 30 (which doesn't bode well for NFL players).

I love Browner and hope they get it sorted out. I've watched him play for years: he went to my alma mater and plays for my favorite NFL team.

Can't believe I just posted about sports on HN...

Fantastic post. What an ordeal.

stay jelly.

haha and probably a ring.

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