Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)
old.ryanfunduk.com
old.ryanfunduk.com
Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find myself bored and wanting to leave listening to some Singularity Guru. Same thing goes with alcohol: if you don't like, don't drink. If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.
The reason there's so much alcohol (though I haven't really come across the binge drinking he's talking about) is because it acts as a social lubricant, which turns out to be useful for many people, plus it's a nice freebie for companies, just like pizzas (don't eat it if you don't like it).
I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me.
> The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant.
Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor.
That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.
Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.
Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.
I have not seen the binge drinking the author brings up other than once at a hackathon but I can see how people could feel discomfort with really really drunk people.
People drink at conferences and meetups but I feel that you could listen to all of the talks without being made fun of for not drinking (to be fair: in in my experience).
Not hanging around after the talks or whatever is over isn't that weird, even finding the people who do not "binge drink" and staying and talking to them wouldn't be impossible.
That said, I feel that it's a different story when it comes to drinking at your workplace.
I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted.
Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.
Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.
(Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on this list you feel are serious.)
That's when limiting myself to bar-related incidents in direct technology events. If you include conferences here's a full on attempted rape from last year: https://web.archive.org/web/20130627000201/http://georgiawei...
I'm even excluding the comic cons because they're arguably not that tech-related but harrasment there seems even more prevalent.
Notice how they also all refer to archive links? That's due to a mix of for fear of the consequences of having these posts be at the top of Google when searching for the victims name and straight-up libel suits being initiated by the perpetrators.
When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due to the cultural issues surrounding drinking in Maharashtra bars were out. This made organizing unstructured meetup time really difficult.
Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events.
In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should collectively be able to tackle.
More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come and go as they please.
Probably just changing the focal point from the bar to the buffet and encouraging seating instead of standing would create a completely different atmosphere.
Another variable you could consider playing with is moving from self-service to being served; where the waiters are instructed to dial down the frequency when guests get too far along.
Ironically enough unlimited drinks is something that could work fairly well in this context, as long as the implication that excessive boozing is discouraged and will not be enabled by the waiting staff.
(I put "exclude" in scare quotes because it's self-imposed exclusion.)
But if you find a good solution that might be deployable in India, let me know. Pune has a good tech scene but regular unstructured social events would definitely improve it.
That you personally don't feel the need to spend energy on these issues I perfectly understand however since it would do little to advance your personal goals. When it comes to those my comments to jiggy2011 might help get you started.
Just like what it would take to make tech events more inclusive; in your case it's also just about finding an existing pattern of behaviour your target demographic already displays which you can most easily latch on to and co-opt to help advance your personal goals: tighter interpersonal integration within the Pune tech scene.
It's late here so I can't ask my Indian co-workers, but I'm fairly confident that their culture also already has patterns to enable spontaneous social interaction. My guess is that it involves food somehow ;)
Whatever group activity you pick somebody won't like it. Last year my company had a relaxation day and went to a baseball game. I hate baseball. Rather than whining like a spoiled child about how it's unfair that they excluded me, I just hung out with a pretty girl, watched Dark Knight Rises and ate some Indian food.
edit: Although I can see the point about men drinking being potentially intimidating towards women.
Well, when you want to change how MOST (by his admission) other attendants have fun, it's really par for the course, isn't it?
>>Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.
I've never seen women have much trouble attending dance clubs, bars, concerts and the like -- places full of men and women drinking. A conference, if anything, sounds much safer than those.
Are we talking 1950's Alabama women here?
As for how much safer it is; I've already commented a bit on that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155984
Nobody is being forced to drink, but I have a feeling that if the author were to make his own conference, drinking would be explicitly forbidden. That’s the biggest problem with prohibitionists of any type (whether it’s alcohol, recreational marijuana, or whatever). It’s not enough that something is optional and they’re not forced to partake. They must force you not to partake.
An analogy would be a conference where the evenings entertainment is a competition to see who can piss up a wall the highest. It wouldn't exclude women per se, because they don't have to join in if they don't want to, but you can reasonably see why they might not feel welcome, and why they might complain about it. If a conference wants to appeal to a broad range of people it's the organisers job to make sure the entertainment isn't based around one thing that only appeals to one group, even if that group is a majority.
There is a world of difference between being excluded, and feeling excluded. Ryan feels excluded, but I genuinely doubt that people are shunning him because he doesn't have a beer in his hand. He isn't being forced out of interesting conversations because of his sobriety.
I've never once seen binge drinking at a conference. Drinking, sure, but binge drinking implies that people are doing kegstands or something similar.
Now, I don't know Ryan personally, and maybe I'm missing the bigger point, but this blog post reminds me of an Elizabeth Taylor quote: "The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues."
There are clearly groups who don't or can't go to events because alcohol plays a prominent part (i.e other people drinking impacts them).
There's obviously trade-offs between different groups of participants, but they need to be made consciously with awareness of the consequences rather than because they're the default.
At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered.
The OP describes a situation where it seems that moderation is being actively discouraged.
There was alcohol on the couple conferences I've been to, sure. Everyone had a beer or two. It facilities relaxed discussions, makes brain storming much easier. I haven't seen anyone get drunk.
"If you don't drink, there will be plenty of sodas, water, juices, etc. at the bar. We want to hang out with all of you regardless of what you're drinking. :)"
Two years ago, as a non-drinker who felt a lot of non-existant peer pressure, just that line would've made me much more comfortable in attending one of these social events. If nothing else, it's a good first step that costs nothing more than the breath to say it out loud.
Many religious and cultural minorities avoid alcohol-based gatherings, because their background forbids or strongly disapproves of such behaviour. Most recovering alcoholics avoid environments where drinking is taking place. As other commenters have said, a lot of women aren't comfortable being alone in a room full of drunk guys; Thanks to the tech industry's problems with gender, they probably already have plenty of good reasons to feel uncomfortable at a tech conference. If your conference is boozy, then a whole bunch of people are going to stay at home for that reason.
Do you not see a problem with booth babes at expos, or game companies who in the past have organised launch events at strip clubs? Would you argue that people who feel uncomfortable with the idea of scantily-clad women being used as props should simply avert their gaze? What if we replaced alcohol with a different drug? Would you be fine holding a tech event in a cannabis cafe or a crackhouse?
If you want to throw an after-party at your conference, fine. Most conferences inevitably have plenty of late-night drinking at the hotel bar and I'm not going to argue with that. But if you allow that drinking culture to encroach on the event itself then you're marginalising a large group of people, you're invoking all the dreadful fratboy stereotypes that the tech industry so desperately needs to shake off.
This does not mean a individual conference couldn't be better with less alcohol, just like a dress code might help in some contexts (see every other industry). This is a choice that every conference maker is free to make, and does every time they organize an event - unlike the complain club supporting members. I for one would love a tea room style conference, but I am not gonna complain about someone not arranging it for me.
Yeah, should we encourage that too in tech conferences?
I know a number of recovering alcoholics - some will avoid situations where alcohol is available altogether, some will happily go to a bar and drink a club soda all night, or somewhere in between. You can't generalize about a group like that.
And personally, I don't like strip clubs, never have. In various jobs, there have been a lot of sales dinners and the like that ended up at a strip club. I always left before we got there. I didn't feel put out, or uncomfortable, I was just frank about my dislike for them, and encouraged everyone else to go have a good time.
To a certain degree, I agree with you - if an event is ostensibly about topic X, but is really about getting hammered, that's unfortunate. But almost all of the conferences I go to have technical talks, and then a cocktail hour/binge drinking session for networking. Or it's a meetup/user group meeting at a bar, in which case, those who are uncomfortable in bars should just not go.
I dispute that drinking at conferences is "marginalizing a large group of people". I think there should be a balance, but ending the practice entirely is silly.
If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"?
I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level.
A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.
Perhaps some of the people who don't want to get wasted just stay away from the conference because there is nothing else to do?
I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level.
A better way would be to have several types of such events, cattered to the different demographics. And if some demographic is not big enough to organize one, well, sometimes in life your tastes are different than most people's and you have to accept that.
caveat: to cater
A "whites only" restaurant is a different thing entirely to a restaurant where you're not thrilled about the menu.
The computing world isn't the most inclusive to begin with, and by additionally alienating parts of the audience that hasn't already been excluded on other grounds (gender, race), none of this gets any better. Conferences carry a lot of symbolic power, because they are representative of a given community, moreso than a forum or a mailing list, where some voices will always be louder than others. The conferences, then, have the onus on them to accommodate a wider audience of people; they also have the chance to shape their respective communities. By creating what has been described by others as "fret party" environments, these communities severly curtail their wider appeal. It also doesn't help the image of programming being a non-respectable profession. If you behave like and cater to the "frat-bros", expect to be treated like one.
Most academic conferences seem to handle this better, with drinks receptions, dinners or evening programme separated from the actual conference content. If alcohol is served, that usually means sparkling wine and/or wine, with juices as alternative. Additionally, conference proceedings and drinking are strictly separated. I think the conference dinner, as a whole, is a better format, because it still enables you to chat to other attendees, but since everybody is already eating together and thus connected by a common activity, drinking doesn't have to be the one thing connecting everybody. Whether somebody then has a drink with their meal or not doesn't matter so much.
[1]: This might be sarcasm.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be more professional to be more inclusive with regards non-drinkers, I just think this analogy trivialises the issue of racial discrimination.
Worse, if this logic is accepted it sets up a hellish society, were that a few people don't like something would mean they can force the many who like it to cease it.
Notice how he doesn't ask for his right NOT to drink -- he asks that OTHERS do not drink because he doesn't like it.
That's like the inverse of democracy: the minorities clamp each other until everyone's not getting what they want.
Didn't we have that with the marijuana laws and sodomy laws already?Wait, we even tried it for drinking, during the prohibition. How did that turn out?
This is self-fulfilling. If you create an environment that repulses non-drinkers, you will only have drinkers to cater to.
That is, how did they get their way? Doesn't that imply they are more numerous?
The author's point is all about this issue. Essentially, he's implying mission drift: the stated purpose of the event is being subverted, or even subsumed, by the unstated purpose (drinking). In his opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on the unstated, to the point where the stated is getting left by the wayside.
It's an interesting point, though it's very hard to prove, and the author weakens his argument with a lot of heavy-handed moralism of the "This has no place here!" variety.
Nevertheless, it's something to consider. When people drink at conferences, do they have to binge drink? And if a majority (or even a perceived majority) of attendees are indeed binge drinking, might that not exclude a fair number of hypothetical attendees who don't want to? It's not a stretch to think that a woman would be put off, or even physically intimidated, by the idea of being in a clear minority among a large crowd of young, drunk males. Similarly, older would-be attendees might opt out if they feel they're just going to show up to a glorified frat party. In the author's view, the problem isn't so much the presence of alcohol as it is an alcohol-centric conference culture.
The problem with this argument, of course, is its heavy reliance on subjective experience. One person's loud, annoying frat party is another person's good time. One observer's "everyone is binging" is another observer's "only a few people were, and they were embarrassing themselves." One person's "I felt excluded for being sober" is another person's "That's all in your head."
The best way to explore this issue is to get out of the subjective and into the empirical. I'd be very curious to see the results of polling among past and would-be attendees to gauge their feelings on this issue. For those who opted out, why did they? And what patterns emerge in their feedback? We'd probably run into some issues with sample size and selection, but something would be better than pure speculation.
We really have no place speaking on behalf of those who aren't present, no matter how small a minority they might be. (Cf. "tyranny of the majority" on Wikipedia or other sites.) The net solution probably isn't that every conference needs to go straight-edge. But at the same time, it's probably not the opposite: that everything is perfectly fine, and those who don't like it can go somewhere else. The author has raised an interesting point, and we should make an effort to hear from those who feel similarly.
Those who don't develop it before 30 or so will always suffer at the hands of those who do, and the latter group includes people who consider themselves inclusive and socially conscious.
Perhaps you should look at this problem from another angle: Maybe it's not that all these people who have personal problems are trying to get people to stop drinking, but instead it's that we should educate and encourage non-drinkers to still attend our events and not drink? Clearly there is a group of people who still think they're being pressured to drink, and some encouragement will make them more comfortable?
I don't drink very much at all, maybe one or two drinks every few weeks. I have never been ostracized, ridiculed, or even noticed when I get a Diet Coke (which is obviously not alcohol if you're paying attention, but from across the room who knows) or even a water (which is obviously not alcohol from anywhere because of how it's served).
The problem is that the boundary line can be difficult to discern objectively. And when people who enjoy boozy parties try to judge them it's all to easy to dismiss the problems because it's just so damned much fun for them. But it is a serious problem, especially in a professional industry.
Nothing anyone who doesn't drink would feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it has much to do with the presence of bars or alcohol, but more with the local culture. And in the US, the drinking culture as a result of the absurdly high drinking age is totally juvenile. My guess is that programmers fresh out of college bring that culture with them.
The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.
I take it you haven't used this global network called Internet, and your comment was sent through some kind of SMS proxy.
I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.
If people want to go over the top, embarrass themselves, then fair enough, that's their prerogative. People want different things in a conference.
On my own conference, we take great care that beer is served in open areas and that everyone can choose where he sits around. That works very well. It is an issue, it is one that can very easily be solved with a bit of open-mindedness a bit of care.
I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party.
edit: changed 'creative' to 'wacky'
I get what you are trying to say, but as a guy with a degree in arts who considers Alan Kay one of his big heroes (if old and grumpy), I have to protest against the implied definition of "creative" here.
Never have worked with the old-street set though, so I guess YMMV.
BUT I think the OP is saying (and I agree) that the 'free beer and pizza' culture is starting to dominate the public view of the programming community. So we get tools with offputtingly brotastic names, documentation that's littered with gratuitous profanity, meetups that reward the biggest drinkers rather than the most interesting.
So I would like to see a culture where the quiet folks can do a 9-to-5, then go home and enjoy church and family without missing out on key decisions and opportunities. If you want to go to a meetup, you can drink a lemonade without people making assumptions.
The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well (more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing.
Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset. In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who partake and erodes beneficial social order.
And I ask, why not?
I suggest using crack or heroin for reefermadnessed analogies like that next time. No, go nuts: Krokodil. Let the reader imagine people using krokodil at a conference.
* * *
It's "unprofessional". Never do anything in your spare time that does not further your career and company.
Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the absurdly high drinking age.
Drinking alcohol <> getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people should feel excluded.
Suddenly these posts make a lot more sense.
If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British 19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.
I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles.
And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people with your best poker face and laptop demo.
It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted for, the programmers are the mildest of the set.
I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about.
And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard.
I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything, and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in this perspective.
The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait, I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that mean I'm a brogrammer?".
The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group (programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer should behave then you aren't one of us."
I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking after the day was over.
It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers. The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes.
[0] https://twitter.com/torontorb (just count the number of times "drinkup" is mentioned... I never even realized this was a thing until I read this article [1] http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 One of many Toronto javascript events organized at a bar.
Discussing while having beers has been excellent source of new ideas for me. While it hampers the ability to think logically it makes thinking outside of the box easier. And it makes the conversation more fluid.
I, like so many others, am so unsocial when absolutely sober that completely alcohol-free events are actually really hard.
If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.
welcome to life dude, get over yourself.