Ask YC: is it wrong to have a business where you sell legal, psychoactive plants? | Hacker News Reader

Ask YC: is it wrong to have a business where you sell legal, psychoactive plants?

19 pointsrms101 comments

Edit for disclosure: I sell kratom at a website linked in my profile. Ingenium is in on the venture with me.

People seem to have real problems with this. I always get modded down when I talk about kratom and people never give a reason.

Would kratom be ok if I was a pharmaceutical company and I told you that Kratom could help you lose weight, be happy, and be more productive? It is an incredibly viable alternative to oxycontin for pain management. How about as an alternative to SSRIs/Benzodiazepines as an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety medication? How about that kratom can seriously enhance productivity, more so than caffeine but less so than amphetamine and with fewer side effects than either?

Disclaimer: Kratom can cause nausea, itching, and constipation, just like other opiates. Like other opiates, it can seriously potentiate other pharmaceuticals and you should ask your doctor if kratom is right for you.

A synthesis for 7-hydroxy-mitragynine has been developed, which would allow kratom to be packaged as a true pharmaceutical. It would probably have to packaged as an extended release formulation so it could be patented.

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RMS, you have a marketing and education problem at hand.

It is not about being wrong about selling what you sell. If it were the case, people wouldn't be buying coffee and tobacco.

The problem is you're selling a drug. Legal or illegal, you are selling it on the basis of "this is a drug, but this is not so bad. This is no way to try to win a customer. People will stop listening before the but, if you keep trying to defend yourself.

The marketing issue: don't push it to people that are not looking for a drug. Go for those that want to listen. Can you provide free samples for students that need to study hard for midterms? Party-goers?

The education issue: find other uses of it. Does it make good tea? Would it work for someone that would want to quit tobacco? Keep a blog, find people that are already interested in what you have and let them do word-of-mouth for you.

But, please, do understand that posting about it here frequently won't help you much. Once, it is ok. More than that, you start to become an annoyance.

I have never modded you down; until today, I'd never run across one of your comments mentioning kratom. However, here's why I think people might be modding you down:

Frankly, and with respect, you sound like a crank and, on this subject, you are a bore. I'm bored of the subject based only on a comment of yours I read today, and the few posts I could stand to read on this thread.

I have no time to evaluate your claims, which are indistinguishable from the claims of 100s of bullshit products. I might be missing out on some wonder-substance, but I know I'll waste my life if I look into every thing that someone promotes as a wonder-substance. So, I'd rather spend my time thinking about things that interest me (code, money, women) and I suspect others, similarly inclined, are responsible for the down-mods.

You seem like a bright guy, but I think this topic is unwelcome, as evidenced by the down-modding. I suggest you drop it.

If you were a pharmaceutical company, and you did the appropriate, properly controlled clinical trials to demonstrate that this stuff is both safe and effective, then it would be OK.

Until you do that, you're walking a fine line between being a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer.

I'd love to do clinical trials, but I don't have tens of millions of dollars. Any suggestions? It seems nearly impossible for an outsider to break into the pharmaceutical industry.

Why don't you try getting into a less capital intensive and less regulated business, like, say, a web startup?

As problematic as the pharmaceutical industry is, there are very good reasons that these products are regulated, not least of which is that they can lead to injury and death. Safety and efficacy of the active ingredient aside, how do you know that the product you're selling is even what you think it is?

I've done kratom, as I'm selling it with rms. I've also taken prescription pain killers, and I can assure you that it is definitely the real thing.

A web startup is not for everyone. The problem with web 2.0 is that most of the time, there simply is no business model. Selling kratom does have a clear business model. I fail to see what the difference is between selling kratom and selling something as a "health supplement". Neither have been FDA tested or verified. Yet people are perfectly fine with selling and buying supplements which are usually just placebos.

Here's a suggestion: stop selling it. Where do you come up with a list of uses if you haven't done these trials? How do you know its safe? It might not be illegal but that doesn't make it ethical.

From the people who drank a lot of wine without any clinical trials at all: "caveat emptor". What he should be is transparent about the whole business. Don't try and fool people, give them all the information there is, and let them decide.

Kratom has been used safely by the people of Southeast Asia for hundreds of years. It's banning in Thailand was an authoritarian reaction to Western war-on-drugs hysteria and the prohibition has failed miserably because kratom literally grows on trees in Southeast Asia. It would be like if the maple tree was banned in North America.

Tabacco had been used for thousands of years before we understand more about its cancer risks. You haven't mentioned how you arrived at the beneficial uses of the drug either. Claiming similar efficacy to mainstream pharmaceuticals without similar proof is unethical.

You don't think people should use kratom without their doctors advice? How many of your customers do you genuinely believe are acting on the advice of their medical professional? I think suggesting that they should get a doctors opinion purely on the basis that it might indemnify you or give your claims legitimacy is pretty unethical.

Can you show me that tobacco was used habitually for thousands of years? It wasn't until Europeans started growing plantations of it in the Americas that it was used like this. The native people used it during ceremonial purposes, but this small of usage isn't harmful.

We arrived that these beneficial uses from what others have said and from personal experience. I can testify that one "dose" of kratom is similar in strength to 20-30mg of hydrocodone. There also have been studies showing that the active ingredient is in fact an opiate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db...

As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses.

> As for a doctor's opinion, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses.

I'm sure they will write you a glowing endorsement for your website, name and all.

I'm a doctor, and I unanimously disapprove.

Tobacco was used for a very long time habitually before we understand its dangers.

Personal experience is not scientific evidence. While it seems reasonably well established that kratom is a minor analgesic like codeine, there seems to be basically no evidence for the other claims. Additionally its addictive.

> kratom literally grows on trees

You said before it was an opiate. Which is it, an opiate, or something from a tree?

The leaf of the kratom tree is commonly referred to as kratom. It contains a mix of many different lkaloids. One of these alkaloids is 7-hydroxymitragynine, in the same way that one of the alkaloids of coffee is caffeine and one of the alkaloids of coca is cocaine. Animal testing shows that 7-hydroxymitragynine has opiod agonist activity 17-times greater than morphine.

Bullshit. Kratom is a plant, not a substance. If you had any clue, you would just shut up and go away, Mr. misunderstood 'outsider'.

So maybe I'm trolling, in the sense that I knew my post would evoke strong emotional responses from some individuals, but so are you.

So you admit to trolling? Well, I'm not trolling, I'm just genuinly pissed off at your manipulative and dangerous attempts to sell dubious drugs under the guise of 'running a business'. What does this have to do with Y-Combinator startups? Nothing.

He is not walking a fine line at all. He is a snake-oil salesman and a drug dealer.

I think drugs should be legal, but I would never be in that business.

You say drug dealer like it is the worst thing in the world. What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are?

It is definitely not snake oil but unfortunately I have been unable to fund formal clinical trials for kratom derivatives as painkillers and I doubt anything short of that will be enough evidence for you. I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated, both with kratom by itself and in a formulation with non-narcotic painkillers, similar to the way that oxy and hydrocodone are usually pressed into pills with acetaminophen or ibuprofen.

"What do you think pharmacists and Chinese herbalists are?"

  1. I think pharmacists have pretty easy, lucrative jobs. Good for them. I also know a lot of student pharmacists. Some of them are very cute. Good for them.
  2. I think Chinese herbalists are naive and, in general, smell strange.

I hope, maybe, to be a pharmacologist one day. Our work is somewhat different than yours. You get people high. We kill the plague.

I am trying not to dislike you. But you said, "I am sure though that the effectiveness would be demonstrated." Really you are sure? You are sure you aren't poisoning people? I am not.

If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms. They simply then add or remove functional groups to tweak them to be a little more effective or patentable. Pharmacology also has developed drugs to let you keep an erection for 4 hours and to put you in a better mood. So I fail to see the difference. Furthermore, how many drugs have been granted FDA approval only to later be found to be dangerous? FDA approval really doesn't mean that much...what DOES is if something has been commonly used for centuries by a particular culture; if it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it.

"If it was "poisoning people", they wouldn't have continued using it."

That is utterly false.

"If you are actually into the pharmacology industry, then you would know that most pharmaceuticals are derived from plants, fungi, or other organisms."

Well that has been the case for a very long time. This process is called drug discovery. We are going to be in a very good position to solve the "forward problem" in the near future. With adequate structure-activity models then computationally designed drugs are a real possibility.

It is an exciting time for a hacker to be a chemical engineer.

Thanks for that post. Can you edit the numbered statement to get rid of the leading space? This triggered the code mode which is causing horizontal scrolling on my screen.

Pharmacists are trained and licensed. You are not.

Chinese herbalists are snake-oil salesmen who occasionally get damn lucky. Sure you want to compare yourself to such scammers?

This looks like an excellent time to split hairs and point out that snake-oil is actually good medicine, despite its metaphorical usage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

There is no science behind Chinese medicine, but it works for treating many symptoms in a way that is a lot cheaper than Western medicine, especially for people in China. Pain, menstrual cramps, that kind of thing. Responsible Chinese herbalists know the limits of what they do and recommend western medicine when appropriate.

There is no science behind using Kratom either. It's a diffuse mix of substances, any of which would be sold on their own if they had any pharmacological value beyond giving you a 'buzz'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=S...

Milligram for milligram, 7-hydroxymitragynine is stronger than morphine. Despite the fact that Kratom has not yet been developed into a pharmaceutical doesn't mean it is worthless, it means the marketplace hasn't quite caught up yet.

There is a huge difference between a fully developed drug and peddling a bunch of leaves.

Just because there are a couple of papers about a substance extracted from this plant does not legitimize your false claims.

He _is_ such a scammer.

Dear rms, I'm sure you're read PG's What You Can't Say. This is evidently one of those things (surprising in a place like this--I know). Just look at all the comments that claim that this is spam or that no one wants to read it, despite the fact that it's currently at the top of the front page. Such wild irrationality, in such volume, should be your cue.

Take PG's advice and don't talk about it, except to close friends. And good luck with your business.

Why not talk about it? Who cares if some trolls get annoyed? Just disregard them.

Yes, there is a difference between kratom and what I suspect was one of the true "Things you can't say": X racial/ethnic subgroup is better at n subtask than Y racial/ethnic subgroup

It's stuff like this that's molding the minds of newer generations into believing that joy is only found by instant fix using prescription pills, alcohol, and other substances, instead of books, art, constructive hobbies, etc.

Anyways, I have a midterm tomorrow. I'll take two crates.

Wow. That certainly got a lot of responses.

My .02, for what it's worth. Everything we consume changes the way our bodies and minds work. Some things do it a lot and some are more subtle. I think rms belongs on YC because a) he's got a web-based business, and b) because he's interested in hacking his own body. Additionally, I wouldn't have a problem with somebody selling Ginkoba, herbal tea, meditation beads, self-hypnosis tools, etc.

Having said that, it sounds very unpopular with some people. It brings up a whole political argument that's probably out of bounds for this site. It seems like it hacks your mind and body a bit more than herbal tea. And in the bigger picture of "should we tolerate people pitching us drugs" I'd have to agree that it's out of place. So it's probably one of those things, like extreme flatulence, that's best kept as quiet and far away as possible. There's a whole other discussion about the ethics of selling the stuff which I won't go into. An interesting moral question is: if you could take substances that would make you great at business and able to retire in five years, yet left you a quaking, mixed-up junkie, would it be worth it? That's a rhetorical question!

I do find ironic is that somebody who is taking a form of stimulent can be so hyper and promotive of their product without realizing they sound like a habitual drug user recommending it to others. I have a soft spot for such pitches -- I know I've been in several business opportunities where I desperately wanted people to realize how much my product could help them, yet if you're ticking people off, it's probably time to tone it down a bit. It's going to be really hard to have a business in which you actively offend 15% (offend as in the villagers have torches and are storming the castle) with your marketing. Go for a venue and a message delivery mechanism that doesn't include those folks.

could you please stop advertising (albeit usually indirectly or offhand) this shit on here?

Why? And why do you have such a hostile response? I usually mention Kratom whenever other drugs like alcohol or caffeine come up.

This specific submission was in response to this. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=71368

There is a difference between a drug pusher and a pharmaceutical company. Both groups reap huge profits at the expense of their customers/victims, but the difference is this:

The pharmaceutical company says "Product A could help you with Symptom B. Why not talk to your doctor about it? Be forewarned, side effects can include fever, paranoia, and death."

The drug pusher says "Product A could help you with Symptom B. It's a great product! Why not buy some from me!"

I've seen you promote kratom on this site several times, and this is the first time I've ever seen you mention side effects and the need to speak to a physician. Recreational drug use should ALWAYS be discussed with a competent physician.

In addition, while kratom is currently legal in the US, it is illegal in the region of the world from which it originates. The US DEA says "there is no legitimate medical use for kratom in the U. S." and has placed it on its list of "drugs and chemicals of concern". You would do well to inform your prospective customers of these facts.

Lastly, I believe you misinterpreted the post to which you replied (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=71262). Xichekolas wasn't talking about the benefits of alcohol or caffeine; he was pointing out the downsides to chemically altering your brain function, and then you come along promoting kratom. Take a step back and try to realize how this looks to the rest of us.

>The US DEA says "there is no legitimate medical use for kratom in the U. S." and has placed it on its list of "drugs and chemicals of concern".

This means nothing. Alcohol can also be said to have no medical use. The active ingredient in Kratom however, 7-hydroxymitragynine, is absolutely an opiate and consequently a pain killer. Therefore, it absolutely DOES have medical use.

so then by your definition heroin has a legitimate medical use? That is absurd.

Sure, heroin is very good at killing pain. At least as good as morphine. We as a society have chosen not to use it medically because it developed a reputation as being easily abused, but it's not like morphine is any worse as a recreational drug.

Who cares if things have a "medical" use or not? Heroin and alcohol both have human uses for which people want them.

well, for one, it's disingenuous for someone who sells it to couch its benefits in an "ask yc" post without any kind of disclosure (you'll probably edit your post now, but that's where the hostility came from)

That's true. Edited. Note that I'm really not trying to make a profit on selling kratom to the news.yc community. I have had two sales that I can specifically track here. Most of our business is coming from Europe now, the collapse of the US dollar is really helping us out.

That and the fact that we're way more tolerant about drugs. You really should focus on the european market.

But WHY do you seem to find this offensive? No one has any problems when other people advertise their startup; that's an accepted use of this site.

You title your post with "is it wrong to..." and then you go and ramble for the most part about

"Would kratom be ok if I was a pharmaceutical company and I told you that Kratom could help you lose weight, be happy, and be more productive? It is an incredibly viable alternative to oxycontin for pain management. How about as an alternative to SSRIs/Benzodiazepines as an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety medication? How about that kratom can seriously enhance productivity, more so than caffeine but less so than amphetamine and with fewer side effects than either?"

That looks like a disguised advertisement to me. If you want to advertise your startup that's fine, but that's different from trying to sell people a specific product on this site. If I created a site to sell cars I can mention it on YC. If however I kept posting about the benefits of this particular car that you should buy from me people would get upset as well. If you want cheap advertising find it somewhere else.

I'm not offended at all by you guys selling that stuff, but in terms of the "here's my startup" threads, you're a bit different. With a web based thing, I can go check it out, see how it works, and offer some advice. With your business, since I'm not really interested in purchasing this stuff, I can't really tell you much at all. Even with web based sites, I would be irritated if they were posted too often, so with yours, more than once is probably more than I'm interested in seeing.

Most other people aren't advertising things of questionable legality and ethicality.

(Note, I consider ALL recreational drug use where the recreator has not made himself aware of competent medical advice on the substances in question to be of questionable ethicality. But I let it slide a bit if you're only using it yourself, and not promoting it to others or otherwise endangering those around you.)

most other people use it to advertise websites (what this community is mostly about) not drugs

>Would kratom be ok if I was a pharmaceutical company and I told you that Kratom could help you lose weight, be happy, and be more productive?

If you were a pharmaceutical company and you were posting about your product on YC News, we would downmod you as a spammer. Eventually, the powers that be would probably ban you.

RMS, I think you will fail for the following reasons:

1. Being based closely on a plant is not good enough: even if you patent the release formulation, it is too easy for someone to copy. This means you'll never be able to sell it for enough money, to make it worthwhile doing the unbelievably huge investment in clinical trials and FDA bribe money needed to get it permitted.

2. There's too much vested interest in the regulated market of patentable drugs for them to stand by while you sell a pill that is equally (in some cases more) effective but based on a plant. Anything that grows on trees is quickly smeared and banned on the thinnest shreds of evidence.

Having said all that, I have no problem with your product being sold as incense to whoever wants to consume it. But you'll remain a cottage industry for the foreseeable future.

It's funny how everyone is against rms on this issue; I don't get it. Maybe he's promoting his business too much here? I don't think so. And AFAIK his business is legit (there's nothing wrong with selling drugs to adults who know what they're doing; selling drugs to kids or uneducated folks is another matter). The only thing he should change is the bullshit on his website "It is for incense purposes only." Come on.

At this point isn't it enough to realize that no one wants to hear about it? Why do you insist on analyzing and debating the subject? Take a hint and get over it already. Leave this aspect of your life at the door and enjoy the site in every other way. How hard is that?

I'm surprised by the negative reactions to Chinese herbalists. I hope people realize good herbalists have mastered knowledge derived from THOUSANDS of years of trial and error (instead of a few months of clinical trials). It is also very scientifically based. The problem is that it is not regulated, so you do get your share of scammers looking to make a quick buck, but reputable and respected herbalists are as knowledgeable as any pharmacist.

This needs downmodded so hard.

I think the question needed to be asked and answered. Is there something off-topic about asking what sorts of Web 2.0 businesses are appropriate for the board? If he had a business selling beanie-babies online with a slick AJAX interface I don't think anyone would care. If he were selling heroin it would be a scandal. So where's the line? I think it is an interesting question as far as being appropriate. It sounds like it is obvious to you that it is not.Perhaps you know something I don't.

There's also the question of what kinds of industries people feel it would be okay to support. Would anybody here write a cool new web application to buy and sell cigarettes? (Assuming it was legal, of course). How about a wine rating and shipping service? I think I would have problems with the first one and not-so-much with the second one. Would you write a web application so immersive it had negative impacts on people's lives? Ouch -- that one cuts close to home, eh?

> If he had a business selling beanie-babies online with a slick AJAX interface I don't think anyone would care.

But he doesn't. There's nothing even remotely on-topic about his business... news.yc seems to be mostly about tech startups, or, at the very least, about new and disruptive business models. This is a fairly straightforward product business (with a few regulatory/marketing issues).

Besides the social engineering of this site, there's not a much in the way of 'hacking' going on with his business. Thus, to me (and plenty of others), it's off-topic here.

I believe you are saying that it's okay to have product business (beanie-babies) and also that it's not okay to have a product business (his stuff).

I, for one, would like to hear about web businesses that integrate product sales into lifestyles. I think it's fine to draw the line at "stuff we think might be illegal and/or bad for people" but I sure would like to talk more about product-based web applications if that's okay with everybody.

No, I'm saying that it's on-topic to have a product business if you're doing something truly 'hacker-ish' with it.

If you have a yahoo or ebay store selling beanie babies, that's OT. If you have micropayment-based virtual beanie baby store that uses genetic algorithms to 'breed' new species of beanie babies with other users' virtual beanie babies, then lets you use on-demand manufacturing to buy physical copies of the new species, then you're back on topic.

PS: if anyone uses that idea, give me 10% equity, please. "Spore meets Tamagotchi meets Etsy."

Also, this business has very little if any growth potential, because if kratom becomes "too" popular, the FDA and DEA are going to jump in with both feet. (And perhaps some big pharmaceutical company will patent a kratom-derived painkiller and crank it out on an industrial scale.)

Yes, that's the essential catch-22 of the kratom business. I just do this on the side, it's not my "real" business.

He's peddling dope, and if you'd been paying attention you would have seen him do it many times before. If you want to talk business, okay:

There is a period in every drug's existence where it is legal. This happened with heroin, cocaine, lsd, etc. In this twilight, money can be made, yes. And if the drug becomes successful, it will eventually be regulated or criminalized. There's nothing special about this.

I've only been on a month or so.

Like I said, you probably know something I don't.

But there are also plants that continue to be approved as supplements. I know, because although I don't do any drugs at all (except alcohol and a bit of caffeine), I'm a big into supplements. Not for this board, but I wonder how the decision is made one way or the other -- what becomes an illegal substance and what is okay to use as a supplement? And how would one know ahead of time?

I've looked into submitting kratom for approval as a supplement. You send a letter to the FDA and then they inspect the facility where the supplement is produced.

Kratom will become illegal if there is political pressure to do so. I hope that the current political climate has moved far enough past war-on-drugs hysteria for this to happen.

It seems difficult for me to imagine someone holding themselves out as legitimate but yet selling a mind/mood altering uncontrolled substance. I think you need to pick one and do the one you pick full time.

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I think this thread is past the point of utility and it should be marked dead if an admin feels that is appropriate.

Admins, please delete this thread. Its purpose is to advertise for and drive business to rms' website. As such, it's no better than spam.

It's wrong to spam.

rms, with karma of 1888, when do you spend time on your business?

3 or 4 minutes every now and then between posts.

Opiates are controlled substances in most cases.

You, my friend, are full of shit and have no idea what you are talking about.

So you are saying kratom is a controlled substance? It is not, except in Thailand, Burma, Malaysia, and Australia.

While it is a neurological opiate, it is chemically very different from poppy-derived opiates.

You wrote:

> Disclaimer: Kratom can cause nausea, itching, and constipation, just like other opiates. Like other opiates, it can seriously potentiate other pharmaceuticals and you should ask your doctor if kratom is right for you.

So you are insinuating, that Kratom is an opiate of some kind. As a matter of fact, it's a plant and contains many known and unknown substances.

And no doctor will have an opinion about Kratom (I certainly don't) and would describe this shit to a patient.

> So you are saying kratom is a controlled substance?

No, please read.

> It is not, except in Thailand, Burma, Malaysia, and Australia.

So it is.

If this is a controlled substance in Australia, it certainly will be everywhere else if it catches on.

Someone ban this guy.

>So you are insinuating, that Kratom is an opiate of some kind. As a matter of fact, it's a plant and contains many known and unknown substances.

And you are wrong. It most certainly is. Chemical analysis of kratom shows that it contains 7-hydroxymitragynine, which is in fact an opiate several times stronger than morphine.

>> So you are insinuating, that Kratom is an opiate of some kind. As a matter of fact, it's a plant and contains many known and unknown substances.

> And you are wrong. It most certainly is.

Kratom is a plant, not a compound. You don't seem to know the difference.

Plants, Mitragyna speciosa in this case, are full of different compounds. One of them is 7-hydroxymitragynine which has agonistic effects on the mu-opiod receptors.

So what? There are many such substances, but one animal test paper does not make this a drug safe for human consumption. God knows what nasty side effects is has.

> Chemical analysis of kratom shows that it contains 7-hydroxymitragynine, which is in fact an opiate several times stronger than morphine. See above. Moreover, what's the actual concentration of 7-hydroxymitragynine in the plant leaves? Probably minute, otherwise this stuff would have been banned all along.

So, you are selling a product, of which you claim not for human consumption but use as incense, and then go telling everyone it contains some opioid substance? So much for truth in 'incense' advertising.

I don't think there's anything wrong with selling Kratom, as long as you make it clear that it hasn't gone through clinical trials, has known side effects, etc... And you do seem to be very conscientious about pointing those things out. So if customers aren't being misled, what could the problem possibly be? That other non-customers dislike your product and don't want anyone to have it? Fuck them.

Someone commented saying we have drug trials for good reason, and you may be selling something unsafe. That person should not be in charge of other people's lives. Let your customers decide for themselves. Anyone who wants only officially regulated drugs is free to buy only those, and other people can make up their own mind about what is safe/cheap/tested/etc enough for them. If people prefer to buy your product then you are helping them by their own lights, so be proud.

You might as well argue that there shouldn't be laws against fraud, because the would-be victims can make up their own mind about whether to participate in advance-fee scams (and lose their kids' college savings). For that matter, there shouldn't be laws against muggings! People can make up their own minds about whether to walk down a dark alley at night.

Or maybe we care about other people and want to ensure that when someone claims product A provides desirable outcome X without also providing undesirable outcome Y, it actually does that thing.

We have a right and, moreover, a responsibility to examine claims like the ones rms makes. They should be put to scientific test and if they are not substantiated, rms should be prohibited from making them. It is unconscionable to expect every individual prospective customer to make his own detailed evaluation.

We are not in charge of other people's lives. We are merely looking out for the public welfare. For some of us this is merely a matter of morality, but for others, this is a solemn obligation they took on when they became members of the medical profession. For example, the UK General Medical Council lists the following in their Duties of a Doctor:

- Make the care of your patient your first concern

- Protect and promote the health of patients and the public

- Act without delay if you have good reason to believe that you or a colleague may be putting patients at risk

When a person like rms makes medical claims about a product, and the DEA offers information that suggests his claims are false, we have every right to demand that he either substantiate his claims in the accepted scientific way used in the drug industry (scientific drug trials) or shut up and go home.

I realize now that I have generated much more controversy than I would have if this was made clear, but kratom is sold on my website purely as "not for human consumption." All of the kratom sold in the USA is sold not for human consumption. As a plant that is neither a food, a drug, or a supplement, I am not allowed to sell kratom for human consumption, so I don't. My customers have all learned what kratom does from sources of information other than myself, which makes marketing very difficult.

Rather than make my own claims for what kratom does (which I believe are true, but which I don't have more than anecdotal evidence for) I should have linked to the studies on Pubmed about animal testing with alkaloids of mitragyna speciosa. However, I stand by my claims and feel that they would hold up to scientific testing. Please, please finance such studies and test my claims.

The DEA is completely wrong with regards to Kratom just like they are wrong about THC. They are not a reliable source.

You are a liar if you claim you are selling it "not for human consumption". The whole controversy that lead you to post this thread came about because you were advocating kratom as a substance for "chemically enhanced social interaction", saying it is "well suited to truly enhanced discussion".

While your website claims it is not for human consumption, this is a dodge that likely won't help you very much if you ever get in trouble with the law. You know full well that people are buying it for use as a drug, and if you have been promoting it as such here, you likely have been promoting it as such elsewhere.

As to your claims about the DEA, please provide scientifically verifiable evidence that the DEA is wrong in this case. Studies have been made and analyzed about THC; I'm not aware of any such studies of kratom.

The DEA never made any claims that it WAS harmful. They provide no evidence for this. All they claim is that it has "no medical uses" and use this to justify making it a controlled/illegal substance.

Alcohol, however, is the worst drug you could do other than methamphetamine. It is quite literally a poison. It is impossible to overdose on THC. How many other drugs, legal or illegal, can the same be said for?

Overdose is not the only factor to consider. What about cancer? Birth defects if a pregnant woman uses it? Neurological effects? These are the things that a scientific drug test is designed to discover. Without a properly designed scientific test, you cannot claim there are no harmful long-term effects. You simply don't know.

I think it's assumed by this point that a pregnant woman should not take any drug while pregnant. You would have to be an idiot to even think otherwise.

We do know that there are no long term effects, at least not those that the FDA would discover during their test. Kratom has been used for centuries in Southeast Asia. If it was causing serious harmful long-term effects, these people would have figured it out by now.

> I think it's assumed by this point that a pregnant woman should not take any drug while pregnant. You would have to be an idiot to even think otherwise.

No, you are the idiot. Of course women take drugs while they are pregnant.

> We do know that there are no long term effects, at least not those that the FDA would discover during their test.

How do you know this, if it was never tested?

> Kratom has been used for centuries in Southeast Asia. If it was causing serious harmful long-term effects, these people would have figured it out by now.

Oh, yeah, that's proof alright. Why not send this to Lancet while you are at it.

Dude, shut up.

Personal attacks make everyone look dumber.

Especially you. Besides, this post was a reply to Ingenium (who seems to have picked the wrong handle).

Believe me, I'm used to it by now.

You sound really miserable, have you considered anti-depressants?

Consider that you are making people miserable with the drugs your trying to peddle.

I'll feel better when I can put folks like you out of business.

Don't feed the trolls.

That's not true at all, they could very easily use something harmful for centuries and not figure it out. That's what science is for: without it, it's extraordinarily easy to fool yourself, or not notice things.

It seems blatantly obvious that rms has a positive opinion of kratom, but that he's selling it in the style of "use at your own risk and discretion". There's nothing dishonest about that.

There certainly is something dishonest about saying "I am not selling product X for purpose Y" when every time we see him promote product X, he is discussing it in the context of purpose Y.

You stand by your claims? So what. Animal testing on alkaloids from the same species? So what! You feel it would hold up to scientific testing? What on earth have you feelings got to do with scientific testing.

You're selling a product on the basis of it not being consumed by humans knowing full well that it is. Your claim that your customers don't get any information from you is at odds with the advocacy for kratom you've displayed on this forum for one.

>Animal testing on alkaloids from the same species?

Animal testing on alkaloids extracted from the kratom plant, mitragyna speciosa.

Ok, didn't understand that in your initial reply. Animal studies aren't human studies.

There is no fraud involved in selling Kratom, nor any force. rms is not making misleading medical claims, he's been clear it hasn't passed rigorous scientific standards.

If you don't recognize where that came from, just look up at the top of the thread. I'd like you to point out the part where he admits he has no scientific evidence for any of his claims.

Moreover, if you're making medical claims for which you have no scientific evidence, you have no way of knowing if you're making misleading claims or not. He has a responsibility to his customers, and he is not fulfilling it.

>That other non-customers dislike your product and don't want anyone to have it? Fuck them.

You can apply that to many other "hater" type scenarios on the web. As soon as some technology comes out, there seem to be a greater number of haters who say its evil. Always seems to be out of proportion to the "positive" hype. if you don't like it, don't use it ! I don't understand the "hate" that seems to be everywhere.

Just as an update, I have several friends who are medical doctors and have tried kratom. They unanimously approve of kratom for medical as well as recreational uses.

"A doctor who prescribes treatment for himself has a fool for a patient." (said by a physician acquaintance of mine)

Just because several doctors who have used kratom think it's a good idea does not mean you don't have to subject it to the usual rigorous scientific testing process.

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