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I think there is a huge misconception of how eve works. It's not really necessary to fly one of the big ships nor train them. But then I started 2 years ago and have 2 super carriers and a titan. It's about getting into the right corporations find the right source of ISK and play the game the way you want it. If you want to fly a titan, you can do it within two years (or less) if you are smart about it.

However what makes EVE every unique is that a new player is valuable as a 10 year old veteran if they are willing to learn. A small ship can hold a carrier or super carrier in place till reinforcements arrive. It takes you 2 weeks to train into that. Hauling for your corporation in a 1 months old character can be as valuable as having a 100million skillpoint character. It's a sandbox after all and only you decide which route you want to go and how mcuh time you want to spend doing it.

If you want to fly a titan, you can do it within two years (or less) if you are smart about it.

Now THAT'S a commitment!

I know, right! I can't even be bothered to play a game for 2 months consistently.

The game I've played the longest is GW2, but that's only because I play it semi-socially and casually. Not to mention the very frequent update rate keeps me interested!

EVE seems amazing, and I'm sure I'd love it (never bothered to download it for some reason), but I don't think I could provide that much commitment to a game.

And GW2 is free. That's also the only game I play, because I can play twice a month and I won't feel bad about wasting my money on monthly subscriptions.

(I know there are ways to play EVE for free, but there is no way a casual player could make it.)

The World vs World in GW2 is just right for casuals like me and the new Edge of the Mists is going to make it even more fun.

Guild Wars is my game as well. My wife and my kids all play it with me. It's a decent family gaming night :-)

We like forming camp stealing parties in WvW.

There are literally people who will invest months of their time to infiltrate an alliance, gain trust, rise in the ranks to then inflict the maximum amount of damage possible (a practice known as 'awoxing' after a character who made it popular a long time ago). This has lead to a level of paranoia among certain people that it would probably be easier to get a job at a Fortune 500 company than one of those groups.

Furthermore, the biggest coalitions [of alliances] consist of thousands and tens of thousands of players. Some of those operations could be considered at least semi-professional with extensive IT infrastructure and dedicated HR and financial teams.

They also have implemented anti-spying features into the communication channels such as hiding watermarks on forum pages that identify the user account of the person logged in. That way if you took a screenshot and distributed it then they could identify who the leaker is.

http://onebit.us/x/i/IxuCXyZK8m.png http://onebit.us/x/i/cAk6RKogxR.png

I think they also used unicode characters as another method, so they would catch you if you copy and pasted text or took a screenshot.

I'm sorry - what? Tens of thousands of people in an alliance, logging In daily, with dedicated support teams?

Is this a description of the future of corporations or just not supported by server logs?

Goonswarm six or so years ago would raise 20-30k a year from donations to pay for colo and bandwidth. All hardware was donated from corporate IT takeouts.

Colo in this case means?

Co-location, rented space inside a datacenter.

Exactly. When I was in TEST, we enjoyed having newbies, and were happy to shower them in ISK and ships, just as I was when I joined. In the end, it became like a second full time job for me, as I basically just started developing systems for TEST and not actually playing the game.

In retrospect, I would probably have enjoyed a smaller corporation with scrappy gang fights.

> However what makes EVE every unique is that a new player is valuable as a 10 year old veteran if they are willing to learn.

This is one of the most important bits, and people coming from other games might think it's hyperbole.

For mostly every other game out there, there's always some upgrade to be had until you've hit the very highest level of gear. In EVE, there's a larger set of roles than the Tank/Healer/DPS holy trinity, and while some roles can be quite cash/skill intensive (like piloting capital ships), there are other important roles (like tackling) where you can have near-optimal gear and skills within a very short while.

There is no linear progression of ships in EVE PvP. You don't need, or want, a capital ship for tackling. You want a small, fast, ship capable of literally flying circles around the big ships, fast enough that the big guns can't really hit it. If you focus your skills on it, you can get to the point where you're an effective tackler within a few weeks at most, and within a couple of months you'll have a character that's tackling with the best of them. At that point, it's really up to whether _you_ are up to snuff.

Yeah, this pretty much. A misconception when one looks at the game from outside is that "bigger = better", i.e. a Titan is the best ship in the game and one should strive towards it, just like someone should strive to the max level in WoW or any other MMO because that is the goal of the game.

Not so in eve. Usually, big ships can't hit smaller ships, or do effective damage. A Titan on its own is pretty useless, and it needs a support fleet of all kinds of ships to be effective (or survive).

This trickles down the ship class tree, all the way down to the lowly Frigate-sized ships, which cost a thousandth of what a titan cost, or even less.

> Frigate-sized ships, which cost a thousandth of what a titan cost

60,000,000,000 / 500,000 ~= 100,000th (and 100x more fun, IMO :P)

Fact! Tackling is my favorite part of fleet combat. I've pulled out battleships when necessary, but buzzing between the huge ships in a Vigil at 4.5km/s and fucking their warp drives is so much fun.

I have the impression that if I started out as a complete newb now in EVE, there would be no way for me to get up to speed and be one of the big guys, running a titan(?)

That's the beauty of Eve - everything is for sale, including pilots, ships, loyalty, and power. Grinding won't get you anywhere. Being one of the big guys is a reflection of one's ability to navigate the social and power structures in Eve more than anything else - a relative newbie starting from scratch can climb the ranks much faster than someone who's been playing for years but lacks the right metagame skills. You're probably right that you'd be unlikely to be one of the big guys, but that's more because of the time commitment than because everyone else has a big head start.

Not quite the same, but in Travian a reliable newish player who can follow instruction and get up to speed can sit a big account and take on pretty big roles quite quickly. And then there is the background spying and account stealing, password stealing etc that is plain fantastic as background intrigue.

It's easy to think that EVE is not worth playing unless you already have been playing for years, or that it's only worth doing so at the highest level. Though if you dig a bit deeper you'll see there's much more to the game than that.

Sure, there's the steep learning curve to beat. But once you get the sandbox concept and realize you can make a dent in the universe, however small, you can start to have some fun. Find likeminded players, and see what suits your playstyle. Be realistic about what you can achieve (train frigates and cruisers if you're starting out, not battleships) and just have fun. If you end up lucky (or work hard, of course) you could buy characters from other players, or just keep increasing your skills.

What attracts me is that the upkeep is minimal, and yet it does allow me to spend hours on end with people I enjoy talking to. Play more, earn more. Play less, no big deal.

I've never been a gamer in the sense that I play a lot of games. The games I've played for longer than about a month (however casual or hardcore) I can count on 2 hands, if not one. But those games, I've played for months if not years on end. (Counter-Strike for 7 years, EVE for 4ish, WoW for 2-3)

I haven't really gamed ever since graduating college a good 4 years ago, but I did stumble back into EVE after a 5+ year break. Having fun once again, and that's what counts.

I would never say that EVE doesn't reward playing at any level. I'm just wired to do things bigger - and I have a hard time playing at a lower level in most anything.

I would recommend getting into a good corp/alliance though - there's nothing that improves gameplay more than that.

Ok. I have an account with a month playtime from years ago. I want to join back up and get into a good corp. How do I find such a corp? I want to go play in fun battles and null sec.

hard to say, I'd say look through forum posts to see which corps stand out, or just go do the stuff you normally do and talk to people in local, talk to your targets (or killers), fellow miners, ... whatever it is. Join those you enjoy talking to and see where it goes.

Small corps are hard if you don't know them beforehand. It's easier to find a handful of really cool people you get along with in a bigger group.

When it comes to recommending people to EVE, the following rule of thumb has been effective: If you enjoyed playing Dwarf Fortress, you'll like EVE Online.

@That one other guy: When most people want to fly a titan, they don't bother training a character and just buy a titan pilot on the sanctioned character trading forum, so training time is rarely an issue for experienced pilots.

Eve has prettier graphics than Dwarf Fortress, though, :p

True! And Dwarf Fortress has more action, less waiting around. Eve Online is often like the real military: wait for 2 hours for 80 other people to show up, then travel for 2 hours, then wait, and then the operation gets cancelled, and travel back home for 2 hours. And you trained for 6 weeks before the event to make it all possible. Never happens like that in Dwarf Fortress!

Eve's client is lightweight enough to run two or even three instances simultaneously.

So back when I played regularly I would do that (i.e. fleet manoeuvers i.e. nothing much) on my main character whilst running missions/ratting/managing production or sales with my "carebear" alternate character, or alternatively running around neighboring systems in a cloaked covert ops ship, scouting on behalf of that same fleet. All with Excel and other crucial management tools open on another screen, of course.

If you let it be so, playing Eve is not unlike running a small business and is perfectly engrossing.

Hah. Running a business is what I do all day. Doing it at night too is what keeps me out of Eve I think.

Do they have to be on separate accounts? (i.e. would you be paying 3 monthly subs?)

Yes

This is why it's important to have an interesting corp. Big corps and alliances make this fun because you have entertaining things going on in Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble/Jabber/IRC.

Yes, but what about those of us that enjoy playing NetHack?

I started playing 2 months ago and enjoyed every second of it. After a very dense playtime for the first 45 days (16'000 minutes / 45 days = 5.9 hours a day average), I started to settle a little bit, realizing my social life and mental health was slowly drifting towards complete dedication...

I keep talking with complete strangers that told me even after years of playing they were still discovering news things, tricks or kinds of gameplay.

I guess for newbies you need the patience and dedication to really have a grasp at the game, but even after intense gaming for 70 days I know probably very little about it; and for experienced players you need ways to renew the pleasure, change the type of gameplay you practice, go from nullsec to hisec, challenge yourself with crazy ideas and so on.

Youtube channels of JonnyPew (https://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyPew) and Scott Manley (https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg) were very inspiring in that sense.

Ps: I have a 40 hours / week job.

When I played Eve I never really felt the need to 'level up'. The learning curve was big enough that just farming money, and running an interceptor was fun enough for me - even after I had bigger ships.

The game really is a sandbox.

I'd be inclined to believe you'd be more likely to end up flying a Titan if you were to invest the training time into it, given that the larger corporations have hundreds, if not thousands of Titans lying around. Your WoW comparison is apt in that respect, Titans aren't exactly commonplace, but there's plenty more of those around than there were 'back in the day'.

Unless you're high up in an alliance or have paid for one yourself and lost it on the alliances behalf no alliance is going to toss you a titan. No corp has hundreds of titans lying around either. PL is rumoured to have ~20 on unsubbed accounts but thats the biggest stockpile.

The statements in the article disagree with your numbers. It was stated that one side had lost 18-23 titans and had destroyed more than 40 titans on the other side, with "more to come".

I guess we could debate semantics over what "lying around" means in this case, but it seems to me that the big corps have access to a large amount of titans if they are losing them in those numbers. They don't even seem to be particularly concerned about it.

Some members of those alliances still certainly have titans. But the alliances themselves don't have them laying around to redistribute to those who lost them and it will be difficult for them to replace them since the build time on a titan is over 2 months each and there are not that many builders in game capable of making them.

I wasn't supporting the notion that corporations have "hundreds" of titans sitting around waiting to be activated. I'm just saying that I would double or triple your number and I would be more likely to agree.

The last report I saw suggested over 70 titans destroyed. You don't commit that many highly expensive ships to a battle unless you can replace them, or you are really really desperate to keep that system.

Also, keep in mind that this is apparently just another skirmish in a war that's been waging since October where dozens of Titans have been lost so far.

I'm getting the impression you might not play the game actively. With that in mind let me assure you that as both a player and a super capital pilot that yes they are used without easy ways to replace them regularly. Even if you can afford to replace them straight away build time cuts into that an no alliance can afford to have 70 titans sitting around waiting as replacements. The side that dropped sov in this has had near immunity with using their super capitals as the other side was more risk adverse with them. The other side decided that this was the time to go all in and they happened to win. One of the sides is believed to have a small cache of titans for rainy days. The other side isn't.

Dozens is also high for how many titans have been lost in this conflict. It's been going on for a while but from what I can remember the number is actually less than 12 up to this point with no other real super on super fights.

Another point is that at this level most of the people are just looking to finally use their titans in a fight. When you fly a titan for most alliances almost all you will ever do is bridge other fleets so its not hard to convince titan pilots to get into a fight.

You're right, I'm not an active player. I'm likely referring to tactics that don't apply. I'm just going by the reports I've read so far.

I can see people sacrificing titans out of boredom, it's mostly wasted time unless they invested actual currency into the ship somehow. I seem to recall one of the massive battles lasted longer than normal simply because everybody was ready for a large battle more or less out of boredom.

Anyway, I'm more satisfied with this last statement than your previous as I was only saying that some of the larger corporations surely have a large number of titans sitting around waiting to be active. I wasn't saying they would have enough to replace 70 immediately, I was saying dozens which could be 24, 36, or 48. I say this simply because if you months of time on your hands and raking in serious resources on a large corporation level, why not spend it all on building the biggest ships in the game?

You're changing my words to fit your beliefs. I never said the large alliances have even dozens. Only one alliance is believed to have a decent stock pile of alliance available titans. And even thats just a rumour. You can say that this doesn't mesh with them using them if you want but the fact remains.

To answer you last question it's because it is a LOT of work to build them and not fun work either and it is extremely expensive to get into building them so the number of people that do it is limited and the people that do it tend to do it when there is orders for them and it'd be pretty well known if one entity was offering to buy none stop production.

PL is believed to have a decent cache(~20) the other alliances involved don't. I'd be amazed if the others had even one or two spare ones each, best case they convince a few inactive titan pilots to log on and give theirs to someone that lost one in the short term while they build a replacement for them.

>why not spend it all on building the biggest ships in the game?

Because only a handful of people can fly them and they are almost never useful. It's much better to spend your resources on smaller ships that everyone can use and get 2000 pilots out there not worried about dying.

Flying a Titan often times has more to do with who you know rather than skill progression and amassing wealth, which can take 2-3 years minimum.

Even if someone has only been playing six months, if they are competent, highly trusted, and they fit in, being provided with a Titan and a character to fly it with is a fairly common occurrence.

I'd say it's extremely uncommon. Only a handful of alliances can actually afford to pay for multiple titans and I can't think of any of those that would give one to a player thats less than a year old(most of those wouldn't even accept a player that was less than a year or two old).

You're right; a one year minimum is a lot more realistic than six months, strictly from an experience perspective.

When you take trust into account though, giving the best friend of an already-trusted player a bunch of high value assets, despite the fact they've only been playing for a year, makes a lot more sense than giving those same assets to some player who's been in alliance 4 or 5 years, but nobody really knows them well.

Also, I would argue that at least half of all players with Titans are heavily subsidized. There are organizations that are so obscenely wealthy that such things aren't a very big deal at all.