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Mike, this "second view" of yours is oh so close to propaganda of Russian TV. Calling everyone a fascist and hiding the inconvinient facts. There is no second view within humam rights framework.

- Yanukovych's power-sharing offer is a sham. It is not true power sharing until he is a president - he controls everything.

- Just looks at the definintion of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism. Yes, there is a nationalistic element in Svoboda party. It isn't pretty itself as well, but it is far, far, far from fascism. Nobody besides Yanukovych is authoritarian here.

- protesters were beaten up for 2 months, but didn't fight back. Only when Yanukovych decided to forbid peaceful protest in general the aggression from protesters started. I don't think police should be just standing under Molotov cocktails, but their reaction SHOULD NOT be shooting from a sniper riffles, killing 5 people, violently beating up protesters, kidnapping protesters from hospitals (!) beeting them up again (!) and taking them far into the fields and leaving there to die on -10°C (14°F) (!).

- Yanukovych has indeed been elected through democratical elections. That is true. And what has he done since then? Jailed his main opponent Yulia Tymoshenko. Changed the constitution to have full power in his hands. There is not a chance now that the next election under him will be fair. And you can state whatever you want but Party of Regions did loos a lot of electorate now. It is not half of coutry now at all, as you've stated.

If you want a balanced view turn to Wikipedia, not some kremlin supported (pun intended, see below) propaganda:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

The peaceful Euromaidan protesters were attacked and beaten by police force on November 30. Even after this the protests were peaceful up until January 19, when the president signed laws that severely limit freedom of expression and gathering. Dissatisfied people went to Hrushevskoho and met police forces there. The opposition lost control of the events from that point. See:

- http://imgur.com/gallery/frnKiFS - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hrushevskoho_Street_riots

During the first days of fights journalists were clearly and openly targeted by government militia forces (~40 of them suffered injuries, arrested, etc.)

Considering fascist bullshit: yes there are some radicals in the crowd. It is very easy to point a finger at some guy and shout: "look a neonazi". The truth is that the crowds are a very diverse group of people. Go read this:

- http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/maidan-po...

If anyone is a fascist, it is the current government with their choice of tactics:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

The party that is a significant force behind the protests is definitely ultra-nationalist. You could see it from the statements about Russians and Jews, and from ethno- and language centric political program. If this party wins (and it has up to 40% in western regions of Ukraine), it will mean that Ethnic Russians in the east and other minorities will become second-class citizens.

Yanukovych is a criminal who should never have even bee eligible to run: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/from-prison-to-presi...

He rigged an election before and got caught. He is a convicted felon and a puppet controlled by Russia. There is no reality distortion field here: he is bad for Ukraine.

Remember, Ukraine does not have a separate judicial system to undo unjust laws. Therefore the people have a responsibility to directly protest these unjust laws (such as the law disallowing protests).

I am not defending violence, but saying that Yanukovych is somehow doing anything on the up and up is false, end of story.

He was convicted as a youth when the Soviet Union was still a thing... People can change.

Did he rig the election when he ousted Yushchenko and the ruling party?

They can, into political criminals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Criminal_conv... does not give a lot of detail but practically he was actually convicted of sexual assault. His occupation at 17 was assaulting women late at night by hitting them over the head and stealing their valuables, including overcoats, then leaving them bleeding in the snow.

I don't believe he rigged the second election, but he would not have to be in power to do it. Ukraine uses popular vote, and the original rigged election was simply done by falsifying voting records in a few regions where he had lots of local support.

Power-sharing is a sham. It would demoralize and disband protests while allowing the government to shift blame for the governments actions onto the protesters (who would then nominally be responsible for the governments actions), and give the protesters no real meaningful power. The governments proposal is intended to do nothing more than to have protesters abandon their position and allow the government to use the protesters as scapegoats. The concerns of the protesters would not be addressed.

It doesn't matter if he was democratically elected as soon as he lost the consent of the governed. That's the difference between elections and revolutions - for the first, regular election process is enough, the second takes place when citizens lost their trust in the ability of power structures to support that process. And this loss happened in part because Yanukovich consistently escalated the situation - first by tryng to forcefully disperse initially tame and non-violent protest, second by pushing through unprecedented package of laws which violate basic rights of citizens. Of course, after that trying to buy off opposition leaders with deputy positions within existing power structures couldn't go very well.

Yanukovich obviously lost control of the situation and lost consent of his citizens, and failed as a leader of the country - having a popular protest this massive and violent in the middle of the capital and now spreading to other places is not a result of the successful leadership by any measure. He needs to go. Who would win the next elections is the question for the citizens of Ukraine, which they will decide once Yanukovich is gone.

> Who would win the next elections is the question for the citizens of Ukraine, which they will decide once Yanukovich is gone.

The problem is that whoever leads the Party of Regions would likely win the next election, which is why these protests are happening. The opposition knows they can't win.

http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=115

The link you showed shows the polls pre-hostilities, up to October 2013. These data are useless now - once it started, everything changed. Also, even there PoR has 20% of the votes. Not exactly the winning position.

It actually is the winning position when the opposition still has less support and PoR is at it's weakest.

The protests will only intensify PoR support in the south and east of the country.

Protesters want Yanukovych to go away. They do not want to stay him as president. Power-sharing agreement is a bluff. I do not understand your connection of neo-nazi symbols with Oleh Tyahnybok and Svoboda party. If someone wears something why do you apply it to this party? Also UPA never collaborated with Nazis. They fought against communists and nazis at the same time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army. They fought will middle 50s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ

http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukr...

These are the words of Oleh Tyahnybok: "They did not fear, but took up their automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine"

http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

From the Wikipedia link you citrd:

"In autumn 1943 some detachments of the UPA attempted to find rapprochement with the Germans. Although doing so was condemned by an OUN/UPA order from November 25, 1943, these actions did not end.[58] In early 1944 UPA forces in several Western regions engaged in cooperation with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD."

UPA is very controversial - it was responsible for mass murdering whole villages during WW2 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_... )

> The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age.[7][8][9] Despite this, most of the victims were women and children.

That's one reason Poles (while we fully support independent democratic Ukraine and it's partnership with EU) feel very uncomfortable supporting people that call themselves UPA continuators. Ukrainians have the right to choose their heroes, and Poles want Ukraine to be independent (geopoliticaly we like the fact that we have very small border Russia very much, also Ukrainians have similiar culture and language). But if they want people to support them fully they could do well abandoning the UPA symoblism.

Yeah, building a new state on an old hatred doesn't usually end well.

I appreciate this alternative viewpoint! Thank you!

From the outside, it's hard to know what to believe. I'm not just going to take your word for it, but it's at least nice to see someone making the point that it's not as black-and-white as it seems.

Don't take my word for it. Just realize that there are 2 sides, and 2 viewpoints to read...

All the media coverage has been very one sided...

Extending your argument about 2 viewpoints: lets go listen to what astrologers have to say about criticism from astronomers...

Exactly. This idea that for every issue there must be two valid viewpoints each with good points is fallacious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

So let's just blindly accept the US-centric viewpoint on everything, which has been proven to be manipulated much of the time...

The idea isn't that there are 2 valid viewpoints, but that more often than not the truth lies between 2 extreme viewpoints.

Good job on arguing against a straw-man you two created...

So the protesters have been more violent? Then why are there more of them dead than there are police and why are there more of them injured than police?

If you followed the news and read both sides, you'd see that there are dead policemen, and hundreds that are injured. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-prote...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLuvsXLQHBM

Im not sure what your video is supposed to show. It is not like the police haven't done the exact same thing to protesters and the protestors are not as well geared as the police forces.

There has been a single policeman killed that is unknown whether it has any connection to the protests as he was off duty and not in the area of the protests. There have been 6-9 protestors killed and thousands more injured. So again which side is more violent?

On the other hand, there are things like this: (warning, NSFW)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk

This is also "lovely", police taking a protester from a hospital: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eqi6anWpqc now that, my friend, are injuries.

And here you can see Berkut beating a man to death about whom they later claimed he jumped off the roof to escape arrest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaC_9ImEGfQ

Then there are these laws: http://craphound.com/images/dictatorship-en.jpg

If you're worried about fascists, you should also be worried about those in power in that country, and the fact that you're peddling their propaganda.

Perhaps they need more skills at throwing molotov coctails?

Lets be honest, if your stupid enough to throw rocks at armed policemen and military, let alone malatov's your asking for it. The issue I am curious about verifying is supposed disappearances from hospitals.

Violent resistance will get that in return, to claim moral superiority for one side over another is reaching.

How far does your disapproval of violent resistance go? Do you disapprove of the Polish Resistance's Operation Heads?

Violence is the only option these people have. Their democracy is not functional, and their courts are powerless to correct these problems. Non-violent protests are made impossible by the government.

> And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected

You may want to fact-check that. Accounts on the matter, as they say, differ wildly.

> You may want to fact-check that. Accounts on the matter, as they say, differ wildly.

How did he rig the election when Yushchenko was in power?

Actually he indeed was, but one of his first steps he took immediately after was to imprison his main political opponent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko#2011_trial_and...).

This is an impressively ignorant comment. Few hundred thousand people are standing on the street for weeks (months!) and what does the government do? Create new oppressive laws! How do you react to that when your peaceful demonstration is declared illegal?

Power-sharing, hah. Who cares about power-sharing with opposition? Opposition is weak and not respected, nobody will be satisfied if they would go with this proposition and they perfectly understand that. What would you do if you knew that if you accept premier minister seat, but people will still stand on the streets? They are afraid to accept that proposition and rightfully so.

Tyahnybok is as fascist as anybody else. His rhetorics is just rhetorics, and he's allied with Yatsenyuk right now, who is widely regarded being Jewish.

Whatever. That is not a valid viewport, but a bunch of bullshit.

> Edit - more fascist imagery at the protests (...)

> http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jp...

Not only fascist supporters! Polandball[1] supporters as well!

[1]: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/polandball