As requested by zerr at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7108449. Here's the 2013 Bay Area salary poll: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5802295.
I've created a salary pool at http://salaryshare.me/a9f54a571d1b0d89a47ee481a61b0da4. Please only post a salary if you are full-time employed in Berlin. Those who only want to see the results, please check http://salaryshare.me/a9f54a571d1b0d89a47ee481a61b0da4/resul....
I spend on avarage about £700 a month excluding rent, which allows for relatively comfortable life in London. What spending can I expect in Berlin? What about rent? (I pay £425 which is pretty cheap for London)
Shame that it's 90 mins drive from here :(
edit: Ok, so I should have read to the end. Yeah, £425 is ridiculously cheap for London.
Rent, depending on what you want, is probably about 80% of what you pay for a comparable flat in London. You can probably get 2 bedrooms (+living room) with all the bills included for about €800. Just be prepared for seriously unfurnished flats: sometimes you need to get your own kitchen! Also it apparently takes a lot more time and paperwork than in London to find something - people say 3-4 months is normal and I'm still looking.
Good luck!
It depends of course where you are, but we (WG) searched for a new flat five months.
To get a feeling, use the well frequented http://www.immonet.de/ http://www.immobilienscout24.de/de/finden/wohnen/index.jsp;j...
..and it is true, unfurnished is standard
Living costs are in general also cheaper. Take a look for Aldi or Lidl for cheap grocery. You can safe there up to 50%. With £700 a month you won't have any problems.
Cost of living (as of Jan2014): http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/berlin
Map of rent prices: http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/de/...
There have been rulings that yearly, regular bonuses have to be paid partially if you leave before the payday. For "Weihnachtsgeld", which is a fixed bonus, this is the reason why modern contracts usually don't include it anymore but just put it on the monthly salary. See the link[1] for a recent ruling (german, sorry).
Still, a lot of stuff that would be a "bonus" in the US is included in Germany. Contracts in germany include mandatory health care, social security, the whole range.
[1]: http://www.zeit.de/karriere/beruf/2013-11/urteil-anspruch-we...
For example, Weihnachtsgeld (Christamas money) is usually 1
or 1/2 of monthly salary and is defined in every contract.
In addition to that comes the yearly bonus, which is rarely
not awarded in its entirety.
"Die Zahlung von Gratifikationen, Tantiemen, Prämien und sonstigen Leistungen liegt im freien Ermessen des Arbeitgebers und begründet keinen Rechtsanspruch, auch wenn die Zahlung wiederholt ohne ausdrücklichen Vorbehalt der Freiwilligkeit erfolgte. Etwas anderes gilt nur dann, wenn die Zahlung durch Betriebsvereinbarung oder Tarifvertrag geregelt ist."
If your contract does not include that boilerplate your employer had a shitty lawyer and should fire him.
Edit: fixed Umlauts which were broken by c&p
In the meanwhile, if you'd like to propose an interesting talk, just send us a mail to hackernewsberlin@gmail.com.
We think it would be cool to have a mixture of tech talks and startup stories. I'd love to hear the founding stories of some of the startups around here.
Either that or I would love to hear what you do !
Almost tempted to apply... ;-)
This is all from the perspective of a "Software Engineer", most of what you said would definitely apply to a lower wage job, but not something that's specialized and in demand.
What definitely does factor in is cost of living. The rents i saw listed in some comments are 3 to 4 times lower then what I'm paying in NYC. Also general cost of living outside of that is far cheaper from the numbers I see listed, though that's harder to compare because I don't know how other commenters live, for example I eat out mostly, cook once in awhile. But, I know it's definitely possible to live more cheaply then I do and still end up alright, though it would require more sacrifices (i.e. I can imagine spending half of what I do in rent and general costs and still get by ok).
In short, yah there are differences, but I don't think the main ones are what you listed.
Jein :) The cost for social security is split roughly 50/50 between employee and employer.
The basic point about more holidays is true in germany as well: I know people that have 30 or even 35 days (7 weeks) of holidays. Then there's public holidays that are paid as well in germany (up to 14 per year, depending on where you live) etc.
My basic point was that it's very hard to compare salaries only by looking at the raw figures since the benefits guaranteed or given voluntarily differ massively.
It depends, e.g. in Belgium part of it is paid by your employer on top of your pre-tax wage, and a (larger) part is deducted from your pre-tax salary. Don't ask me why.
I think you're right to point out that there's two different – though obviously related – questions to ask: (a) are companies paying less? and (b) is individual taxation higher?
After a certain point the cost of rent maxes out, especially if your a single person with roommates. Also the US has lower tax rates. If you wanted to be really optimal in total profits and not move to a developing country you might work in austin, seattle or even las vegas with no state income tax and far more affordable rents.
The only thing left is 2 or 3 more weeks in vacation time, which if you adjust on a $/hour basis, the SFBA still comes out ahead. It is definitely enviable, but there are companies out there that would be fine with you taking equivalent unpaid vacations or working remotely for weeks at a time.
Here's a comment I posted a couple months back with more information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6648443. Feel free also to get in touch (my email's in my profile) if you want some more advice.
Anyway, I say go for it! It'll be the best decision you've ever made. :-)
(American junior developer/researcher outside of Frankfurt here -- also very happy)
While €20k is certainly a low salary for a software engineer (even in Berlin), it's not completely unheard of. I've seen a couple startups offering €1500/month for entry-level dev jobs, and actually, €1500 gross is enough to live on here. Then there are the so-called "mini jobs", which only pay €400/month or so, but those are usually student jobs or unskilled labor. You probably won't find any real dev jobs at that level—especially not full-time positions.
Also, it's pretty common here for people to discuss salaries in monthly terms (my German employment contract is one example), whereas in the US it's more common to talk about annual salaries. I didn't consider that when I created this poll, so it's possible some people were accidentally responding for the wrong time frame. I've added "annual" to the description to clarify.
And finally, it's entirely possible those are just junk responses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5537023
For my student job I only make 500 euro a month, but that's well a side job while i study tho. so of course that is somewhat low, because i'm only working 9 hours a week there.
I've also spoken to quite a few recruiters in recent years, and many of them were quite blunt that jobs in cities like Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg usually get you 10-20 % higher salaries compared to Berlin, same kind of tasks, same skills required.
If you make more than 60k the living costs aren't much of a concern for you anymore.
Why? It's a function of supply and demand - for a long time a lot of people wanted to move to Berlin because it was cool, hip and cheap to live. So there was a steady supply of people wanting to work and live in Berlin, driving prices down for employers and since living in Berlin was (and still is) cheaper than Munich it was economically viable for employees to take a lower salary in Berlin and still come out ahead financially. Things changed a little since costs are converging a little, but as prices went up, salaries went up as well.
Berlin has certain advantages for tech employers:
* It is an expat-friendly city
* Nightlife is great, if you like the makeshift style
* It is the epicenter of the german hacker community
* Costs of living are still lower
All these are soft factors are opportunities for employers to haggle prices down.
As single developer you wouldn't need 85qm, true. As a couple you probably want to have min. 50-60qm. My personal taste obviously, but I have a family with two kids and we need more than that :)
It's still pretty easy to find a 50qm in Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, or Neukölln (within the Ringbahn) for under €500-600 warm. If you want or need a larger, fancier flat, or if you want to live in Prenzlberg or Charlottenburg, obviously you can choose to pay more.
If you look into (relatively well connected parts of) e.g. Moabit or Wedding you'll find prices more agreeable.
UPD: well, for a large flat in the city centre that's a fair price, but that's not average for Berlin.