Germany's Privacy Stance Boosts Berlin's Tech Startups | Hacker News Reader

Germany's Privacy Stance Boosts Berlin's Tech Startups

forbes.com

82 pointslelf61 comments

I think there are some small green shoots in Berlin, but I'm not sure whether it is anything to write home about.

It is true that Germans are more privacy conscious. Yesterday for example, the Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool that allowed Germans the possibility to see if they are 1 of the 16 million identities recovered from a botnet analysis project. Although the site went down after it was featured on the nightly national news, it shows that the German government is actively encouraging and publicizing privacy and crime related issues affecting the German public.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=...

Of course it doesn't address the issues of the EU data retention laws and the access that the BND have to access email whenever they feel like it.

Also, the recent "efforts" of the largest internet service providers in Germany to encrypt email transport between each other has been seen as more of a publicity stunt then anything of any real value concerning privacy. Emails are still unencrypted when stored.

You are aware that Berlin isn't the biggest IT/software cluster in Germany? There are a lot more companies with a lot more revenue in the Rhein-Main-Neckar area[1](pdf, image page 3).

It's just that the "sexy, webby" stuff is in Berlin, so it has more visibility.

[1] http://www.softwareclusterbenchmark.eu/images/images/Downloa...

Let me explain a little bit about the level of privacy in Germany.

In Germany you don't put the apartment number in a letter. The mailman matches your name to the name on the mailbox to give you the letter

Even when registering with the government they have what floor number you live, but not the apartment number.

This is mostly because of the Stasi.

This is not mostly because of the Stasi, which became a hot topic in western germany after the wall came down.

e.g. in 1981, there was a census planned. It met so much opposition that it had to be delayed until 1987, especially because of data protection issues [1].

The main issue is that conflicts with the state have always been common in Germany, so there is a general distrust towards data collection. Also, privacy is a regular debate, keeping the whole topic warm. E.g. during the 90s, there was an attempt to allow acoustic surveillance on a large scale.[2]

BTW: I had to accurately describe where I live. Apartments don't have numbers in germany, so I live "3rd floor, next to the stairs".

Sorry for the german sources, I couldn't find good english ones.

[1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksz%C3%A4hlung_in_der_Bundes... [2] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_Lauschangriff

It might be that the gravity of the second sentence in your comment is lost on the non-Germans here, so let me fill in some more detail: The protests and controversy regarding the census led to a legal dispute that reached the constitutional court, from whose ruling a new fundamental right called "informational self-determination"[1] is derived.

This is unique to Germany.

To understand why this happened, you have to remember that during the 80s, most Germans had personal experience of organized privacy invasions with extreme consequences. A "Blockwart"[2] was an NSDAP official _from your neighborhood_ with the right and duty to sniff out any "ideologically problematic" behaviour and report it to the Gestapo.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determinatio... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockleiter

@Argorak: I usually just post a google translate link of the German page. Better than nothing and so far nobody has complained.

Just want to emphasize this:

Germany has a __fundamental right on "informational self-determination"__ [1].

From the wiki article:

<< On that occasion, the German Federal Constitutional Court ruled that: "[...] in the context of modern data processing, the protection of the individual against unlimited collection, storage, use and disclosure of his/her personal data is encompassed by the general personal rights of the [German Constitution]. This basic right warrants in this respect the capacity of the individual to determine in principle the disclosure and use of his/her personal data. Limitations to this informational self-determination are allowed only in case of overriding public interest." >>

This is still quite interesting in several current debates.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determinatio...

Besides the Stasi, Germans may be concerned about a hypothetical tyrannical government deciding to persecute an specific group of people, snatch them from their homes and send them to concentration camps.

(Yes, Godwin law. Yawn.)

Thus it is all the more surprising that in present-day Germany one must register one's residential address and religion with the local government.

Note that religion is only relevant if it's one of those on whose behalf the government collects taxes - the two main and some smaller Christian churces, and the Jewish communities. If you religious affiliation is anything else, it will be stored as "other" or "no data".

I don't quite buy this. In Germany you are legally required to register where you live with the government. Failing to do so can result in penalties, and your registration paperwork ("Anmeldung") is required for almost any government service and many private services as well.

In the United States, if I move, there is no registration of such addresses. States do require driver's license holders to update their licenses when they move, but this is never checked and not verified. Additionally, in the US, if I have a private contract or if I buy a land trust (whose shareholders are private) I could simply take up residence somewhere, and never even have mail sent with my own name on it.

For someone wanting not to have their residence known, Germany isn't the place.

And, how many times have you moved without telling anybody your address or filled out a change of address form? As a German that has lived in both countries, I find it amusing that Americans would complain about it. Thinking that it's really that much different. But everybody pretty much fills out a change of address form.

In the end it's known where you live. Only if you're a tinfoil hat kind of guy and want to live as a hermit in a shack in Montana.

> Even when registering with the government they have what floor number you live, but not the apartment number.

The local (German) government knows exactly where I live. My apartment doesn't have apartment numbers - as far as I can tell, this is common. Instead I live on the "second floor, right side" (2-R). This is what it says in my lease and on my registration with the local government, and, along with the street address, it uniquely identifies my apartment.

Besides, the very fact that one must register one's residential address with the government is contrary to the point you are trying to make. Even more bizarre, in my opinion, is the fact that I must also register my religion with the local government. (That is so that the government can collect "church tax.")

My experience living as a foreigner in Germany is that Germans trust the local government but not private companies.

I feel exactly the same way. The government has quite a bit of authority over its citizens that other first world governments do not. Free speech protection is really poor (see low-violence video games and the suppression the NDP is facing), and there appear to be no restrictions on search and seizure.

Private businesses, however, have a lot of requirements put upon them. They must, for example, delete all personal data they have on you upon request. Transactions are still very much cash based, as cards aren't trusted. Even online shopping can be handled by a simple invoice, where a customer doesn't have to provide any banking details at all in order to pay.

> Free speech protection is really poor (see low-violence video games

low-violence, yeah, right.

> and the suppression the NDP is facing),

Srsly? The "suppression" is mainly through initiatives of privat citizens who want nothing of that Neo-Nazi bullshit, and efforts to prove that despite attempts to disguise it, the NPD's goal is to abolish the very constitution that grants a right to free speech and thus has no right to claim protection under it.

> and there appear to be no restrictions on search and seizure.

This is, of course, complete bullshit.

Each apartment in German has a registration number and is registered with the government. Most tenants, however, are not aware of this number since it is completely irrelevant in everyday life.

And you don't put the apartment number on a letter because you usually don't know it. In addition, mailboxes at building entrances are mandatory, i.e., the postman will usually not have to look for your actual apartment.

Funny fact on this: I am an German homeowner - and I do not know the registration-number of my own property. Seems to me, that this number really does not play any role in anybodies life, except maybe some squirrels working in some government agency.

Could you elaborate on this number a little bit more, as I could not find anything on it?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufteilungsplan

If you don't know your property's ID number how would you specify that you actually own it?

This all seems to be a bit beside the point -- but does the apartment register you allude to also contain information about the current occupants and/or the person paying the rent? I assume it does not.

Except that your name is also put on your doorbell with a label-maker, so anyone in your apartment could easily find out which flat was yours. Furthermore, the downstairs/apartment building's set of doorbells also proclaims last names, and are often ordered by floor. E.g. I live on the third floor, and my doorbell is second highest.

In fact, it's advised that you don't put any first initials/first names on your doorbell, because then people could be inclined to send you prank takeaway food, for example, because they know your address and full name just by standing outside the building.

So...this point doesn't make any sense.

"Except that your name is also put on your doorbell with a label-maker"

Never seen this in Germany. Not that I remember, but most places, no, this doesn't happen.

"downstairs/apartment building's set of doorbells also proclaims last names, and are often ordered by floor"

They thought of that. So they mix it up, or just list, it has nothing to do with floors

"In fact, it's advised that you don't put any first initials/first names on your doorbell"

Correct, they usually put last names only.

I've generally found that the order of the names on the doorbell list roughly matches your floor. So if you're on the 2nd floor, right side from the stairs, your doorbell is second from the bottom, on the right side.

Obviously, there's no standard nor convention, but Hausmeisters seem to find it convenient, and I like it when I can do that when visiting a friend for the first time.

Of course there are, however, apartments whose Haustür (the door to the apartment building) leads to several different buildings or staircases. In that case, good luck ever finding that person even if they want you to come visit.

> Never seen this in Germany. Not that I remember, but most places, no, this doesn't happen.

What are you talking about? Every apartment building has a set of labeled doorbells at the ground floor.

At the bell next to the apartment door, not on the entrance to the building.

In my city (Leipzig), all apartments have these. All the last names are listed on doorbells, and you have a phone in your flat, from which you can unlock the apartment building's front door without coming down.

So, in total, your name is three places in the apartment: at the entrance next to a doorbell (which effectively "calls" your flat), on your mailbox, and above the actual doorbell near your flat's front door.

I live in Leipzig and I have no name on the doorbell near my flat door. If they deliver a packet to a neihgbor I have to go out and ring the doorbell at the entrance, or guess which apartment it is :)

Of course there is a name next to each bell. How would you ask to be let inside otherwise?

Well, where I live the (last) names are at the bell at the building entrance as well as the bell at apartments doors

I don't understand how having your name plastered on a mailbox is better for your privacy.

Why not just use a box number?

This system makes it impossible to receive mail for friends and family. I'm the mailing address for a transigent family member so I have to put his name on our box, in addition to mine, my wife's, and her unmarried name.

I've had mail returned because of a name misspelling or illegible handwriting. But a postcode, street number and name, and apt/box # will always hit the mark.

this is a common address:

Henry Schuhmacher

23562 Lübeck

Ratzeburger Allee 85

Every house has a number and the name of every resident on the bell and mailbox. Typos are normally ignored by the competent, but sometimes lazy postman. In the situation, that you are new and your name is not yet listed the address is following.

Henry Schuhmacher ( bei Friedrich Werner )

23562 Lübeck

Ratzeburger Allee 85

If the letter cant be delivered and the letter has consignor, it gets back. No magic, no real privacy.

In practice it worked perfectly well for me for more than two years living in shared flats in different places in Germany to give out only c/o (bei) addresses to anyone I ordered or corresponded with, I'm not aware of anything that got lost despite not having my name on the doorbell and post box.

You could even invent a name put that on the door and still c/o yourself, I guess that still would work. The only people who annually enter rental flats are normally the "Heizungsableser" people (heating consumption read out) and even they go floor by floor and not by name first.

Out of curiosity: how does lack of apartment numbers changes anything?

In the United States, you generally have your specific apartment number as part of your address, like so:

John Smith 123 W Main St #456 Pleasantville, PA 12345

The mailman will then find the mailbox labeled '#456' at the apartment building at 123 W Main St.

However in Germany, you would instead write:

John Smith Mainstr. 123 50505 Pleasantville

And the mailman will find the mailbox labelled 'Smith' at the apartment building at Mainstr. 123. So effectively, your last name becomes critical to your mail being delivered, and your address is shared amongst everyone else in your apartment building.

Where the actual door to your apartment is remains unknown to the mailman, post office, and person sending you mail.

> Where the actual door to your apartment is remains unknown to the mailman, post office, and person sending you mail.

This is true, but, given that the building itself is identified, I think this provides a negligible amount of privacy.

The expectation of a higher level of privacy in Germany and other European countries is usually based on a common misunderstand:

Privacy does not protect against state surveillance, on the contrary: State Surveillance is always excluded from privacy laws. All European countries, in particular Germany, cooperate with the US in surveillance.

And while the data privacy regulation in Europa is without any doubt much stricter in Europe than in the US, it is also very ineffective since there are usually no direct sanctions except for political cases like Google's collection of WLAN data. In addition, most start-up companies rely on American services providers. The advantage of using American service providers is simply to great to be ignored, and data privacy is rarely an issue. American service providers are usually much better at offering superior functionality at a better price.

NO.

There are differences that have everyday consequences. It is illegal in Germany to share information gained by intelligence agencies with the regular police[1]. This is eroding, but we are fighting against it.

State surveillance is specifically regulated in a fundamental right that is unique to Germany[2]. There are officials trying to ignore this (Autobahn toll-collection), but we are fighting against it.

Most people here use American service providers, American social networks and the like. Those who are not uneasy regarding the privacy of the data are quite the minority. Many people use fake names on facebook that only their friends know (Yea, doesn't work, but they try!) and are very picky regarding the information they share. German companies with critical information are avoiding American services or, for those that were to blind to see what was coming, moving away from American services. Everybody here knows that US companies are unavoidable these days, but we are trying do do something against it.

Germans are extremely suspicious of intelligence agencies and completely disapprove of data sharing with the US and UK. However, it still happens because, as a consequence of that war we lost, the Western Allies have access to our intelligence agencies. This seems to be impossible to change, but we are fighting against it.

[1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determinatio...

It is (was) also illegal for the NSA to share most of the information it gathered with local law enforcement but that didn't stop it. There are also people fighting against it in the U.S., but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Also see http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/europe-wont-save-.... The argument there is that (a) a mutual assistance treaty nullifies Germany's protections because it requires cooperation with U.S. intelligence and (b) German companies are forbidden from notifying users if data is requested for law enforcement purposes.

What exactly IS "Germany's Privacy Stance"? I'm not sure there's any real consensus on this question. Or have you all already forgotten about this story here:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-is-a-both-...

While there are some houses blurred out (I believe mostly in wealthy neighbourhoods), Google's Streetview is available in Germany.

When Google was preparing to launch Streetview in Germany, there was a big media hoo-ha about it and they reacted by givng property owners the opportunity to have their house blurred; wealth has nothing to do with it, except that the wealthy are more likely to own the property they live in and pay attention to stuff like this.

Certainly unrelated to the article, but I've been considering moving from the US to Germany. As I understand it, Berlin has a pretty thriving tech scene and I'm targeting it as my destination (Munich has come up, too). Anyone care to comment on how easy this might be?

If you can get the job contract, it's very easy. There are a couple documents you need (e.g. work contract, local residency registration, flat contract, tax registration, proof of german health insurance [which is a special letter written from the health insurance company to the Ausländerbehörde]), but basically if you have a contract and you're a skilled worker, they'll grant you residency.

The employer may have to prove, as they did with me, that no one else in the EU could fill the job as well as you can. So they'd have to put up a listing for a certain time before you could have the job. If possible, I'd arrive in Germany with a certain job offer as opposed to being sure you can find one within your three month tourist visa period.

The more difficult part would be that people who work in foreigner's office and all other government offices (I had to go to at least three different offices), as a rule, don't speak English. And you'll visit the Ausländerbehörde itself at least three times, and they will give you instructions, orally, in German, on what to do/where to go next.

Further, just as a rule, you will need to learn German in order to feel comfortable in your day to day life in the country and to integrate. Many tech companies say that you don't need to know German to work in Berlin -- though your workplace may operate in English, the rest of your life won't. Learning the German language is much more difficult than getting residency itself.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I moved from the US to Germany for a technical job about 6 months ago so I remember full well the procedure.

I appreciate the response. I do plan on starting German classes this Spring and, also, visiting Berlin in the later Summer months. If you have any pointers on what the best way to look for work is in this situation, I'd love to hear them. I would like to connect with a few people when I'm out there and, maybe, planned on working a day or two at a local coop space (if any exist) just to meet a few people. Thanks, again.

Hi, please any questions or advice on job search, visa, etc. I am an expat, software developer, working in Berlin at some startup. My email: 2belikespring at gmail. Welcome!

I know this is why I use Wunderlist (Berlin), rather than RTM or Things or similar (USA) - I'm more comfortable under their local privacy obligations. (In reality I don't know how much difference it makes?)

In reality it depends on at least two things:

1. Is their team capable of securing their environment and releasing code that isn't vulnerable to data theft attacks?

2. Do they also store all their customers' information in Germany or is it on some US-based servers?

6wunderkinder seems to use Amazon AWS:

http://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/6wunderkinder/

Interesting. Amazon AWS in Europe is hosted all over Europe, e. g. Ireland etc. They should comply to EU privacy laws, but not necessarily to Germany's privacy laws. Difficult.

Also, US companies have to comply with the patriot act even for data centers outside of the US.

EC2 in Europe is hosted in Ireland only.

Like any other company operating in Europe, they're subject to punishment if they're violating EU privacy regulations. That US law obliges them to do so is no defence.

Sure, they are between a rock and a hard place in that respect. But that doesn't help you if you want to push your data somewhere out of access from the US. The company in question has to comply to the requests just as they do in the US, fine or not.

Well it's very hard to make it physically impossible for the US to access your data. The most practical thing you can do is store your data somewhere with a solid, well enforced legal system where it would be illegal for anyone to transport it to the US, or for the US to access it.

I mean, it's just as illegal for the US to access private data in Europe if the server it's on is owned by a US company or a European one. So it's not like AWS is especially vulnerable.

> Amazon AWS in Europe is hosted all over Europe, e. g. Ireland etc

No, AWS is only in Ireland. Except for Cloudfront which is in most countries but that isn't really relevant considering the data stored there.

> Things

Cultured Code are in Stuttgart

Cool, I didn't know that

Here is a nice little anecdote. I previously mentioned that the official German Federal Bureau of Information Technology (BSI) launched a tool [2] to help the public find out if their identities were included in the analysis of a recently cracked botnet that resulted in a database of 16 million people's identities [1].

Germans can enter their email address and you are given a result as to whether you were included or not. If you are, you are advised to assume that you computer is compromised.

I told my office colleagues about this (who are German and not tin-foil hat wearers by any means), who immediately stated that they wouldn't use it because they don't trust the government not to spy on them. They specifically referenced the backdoor / trojan that was attributed to the BND back in 2011 as a case in point [3].

Personally, I think that this little story quite accurately sums up German attitudes to privacy and distrust of government.

[1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2... [2] https://www.sicherheitstest.bsi.de/ [3] http://theconversation.com/ein-spy-is-the-german-government-...

I would like to add that the German distrust of government is fundamentally different to what I've come to know about the American distrust of government. We are very careful to give the government power that might be used to control the populace and further a totalitarian regime. But otherwise we have a strong government with a robust public health care system, free education (including great public universities) and reasonably good unemployment insurance. Some of that is eroding away unfortunately, but by an large Germans have a much more positive attitude regarding government organization and regulation than Americans.

    > including great public universities

Citation for German universities being great?

I think the focus here is on the public part. Private universities in Germany don't have a particularly good reputation in general and are considered to be a way out for children who didn't do well in school but have parents rich enough to buy them into a university.

Public schools on the other hand are all considered to be more or less equally good, so it doesn't really matter which one you attended later in life, which as I gather is different in the US.

Hey there!

This is Moritz from ZenGuard (the company behind ZenMate).

We really appreciate being mentioned in the article.

Shameless plug: We're currently hiring to build more great products with privacy in mind, if you're interested in joining our berlin based startup you can see the open positions here:

https://zenmate.io/jobs

Thanks!

Privacy? lol-wat? 1990 is over. Berlin is hyped because it's a cool city at very low costs with easy visa's.

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