Comment by CreakyParrot | Hacker News Reader

Comment by CreakyParrot | Hacker News Reader

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1. Not defending the concept or execution of that wall, but the list of reasons behind its existence includes many more things than just nationalistic tendencies. If and when it's dismantled, it'll say far more about the relative functioning of the two nations' respective institutions and economies than it will about any decrease in nationalistic tendencies.

The original signatories to the Schengen Agreement were some of the most nationalistic countries on the planet, and still are, 29 years later.

2. It only feels like the Berlin Wall if you ignore the fact that the Berlin Wall was built to prevent emigration and defection.

3. You and I live on the same planet; mind if I enter and leave your home without restriction? Mind if everyone else is free to, also?

I agree with what you're saying in principal, but the application of ideals is where things become far more complex.

Also, it's worth reflecting on the fact that the federal republic of the United States has totally open borders between its 50 states, which is too often taken for granted, and basically provided the model the EU is struggling to imitate.

I think the existence of this wall is justified by economical reasons. The affluence of the western world is based on the fact that we can buy products built with the cheapest labour, say in China; but the cheapest labour can't come and compete with us for jobs they would do at a fraction of the cost.

I know I'm oversimplifying, but I think it's abhorrent that strict immigration policies go hand in hand with free trade. If you allow goods to move freely you have to allow the workforce to move as well.

Schengen doesn't only include rich Western European countries, though, but quite a bit of economic differences. Bulgaria and Romania are both poorer than Mexico, and yet there's no wall keeping them out of Germany or Scandinavia. Poland was also quite poor when it joined, though it's now slightly wealthier than Mexico.

This is only true for tourism, not true for the job market inside the EU.

If you are a French national and want to come work in Italy: no problem, you are treated exactly like an Italian (except for maybe a couple of national security jobs). If you are Romanian you still have to get a work permit.

Work permit for Romanians: Not anymore since 01.01.2014. Since Romania joined the EU in 2007, its citizens had to wait till this year to be allowed to freely work everywhere in the EU.

This led to a lot of polemic and propaganda here in Germany, especially from the right-wing.

Yeah, there's a giant table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker...

After a country joins the EU, its citizens gain full freedom of movement after 7 years maximum. Countries can impose a 2-year transitional period, followed by a 3-year extension, and another 2-year extension, with escalating requirements for what claims need to be made to justify an extension.

For example here in Denmark there was only a 2-year transitional period, so Romanians and Bulgarians are free to work here without a permit since 1/1/2009. But a few EU countries, such as Germany and the UK, exercised an extraordinary right to delay implementation for a full 7 years, by asserting "serious labor-market disruption". Italy was in between, applying the 2+3 but not the full 2+3+2 transitional period, so Romanians/Bulgarians may work there without a permit since 1/1/2012. Since 1/1/2014 all transitional periods for Romania and Bulgaria have expired (a transitional period for Croatia is still in effect in some countries).

However I was imprecise on the terminology: Romania and Bulgaria are actually not in Schengen yet, so EU states may impose border checks. What they are part of is the free-movement-of-labor zone, which is not quite identical to Schengen.

That's great to hear. I'm very happy to stand corrected!

That's why I specifically referred to the original signatories.

And it's far more complex than that. Germany faces severe demographic trends that have caused a labor shortage, and also has an economy that's highly dependent on manufacturing exports. Having an open door policy at that point makes an awful lot of sense.

The US is headed towards a similar situation, but will have a better labor pool in Mexico, and–Internet wisdom notwithstanding–the US is much better at integrating immigrant labor than Europe is.

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