San Jose Is Hell On Earth (1996) | Hacker News Reader

San Jose Is Hell On Earth (1996)

jwz.org

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All of this is still true today.

Edit: except the parts about SF, obviously. San Francisco is clearly not the interesting eclectic city the author describes. More and more of the office park culture of SJ & The Valley has crept into San Francisco, and this influx of white and Asian males who work in tech has made San Francisco many steps closer to a large office park "city".

It's pretty funny that you probably don't realize that you sound alot like the Irish, Polish and Italian old timers when I was growing up in Queens and Brooklyn.

Substitute "white and Asian" with "black and Puerto Rican" and "office park" with "barrio" and you have the same sentiment.

You are a bigot.

From his post history, it seems he himself is a "White or Asian male".

That does not change anything.

I see nothing that says that white and Asian males must be boring or uninteresting. This seems like as commonplace an observation as saying "when I go to areas of LA known for gang activity, I see many black and Latino males."

He's not implying a necessary correlation but reporting an observation. I may be overly generous in reading his comment but I don't think so.

What about an influx of black males who work in tech, or an influx of white/Asian females who work in tech? Would these groups be less contributory to the "office park culture", and why?

Those groups are not emblematic of the startup culture. He's mentioning those races to make the point that the lack of diversity within that culture is so stark that membership in the set of startup tech employees virtually guarantees membership in the set of white or Asian males. He's not saying they are boring or undesirable because they are Asian or white.

If startup employees as a set were more racially/ethnically diverse it might defy that stereotype of uninteresting personalities. Or that might just decouple it from the racial predictability. Eg, in NYC I-Banking is a bit more diverse but still induces that same yawn -- in some people -- when you hear someone say that's the field they work in.

PS, I upvoted you bc I believe you're asking the question honestly and not in a trolling way. Your comment was grey when I came to it.

Don't bother with the faux naïveté. If you actually work in tech, you know that the gender ratio is probably around 90/10 among coders, and it skews heavily white and Asian. The groups you mention don't contribute as much simply because there are so few of them.

Yes, obviously the gender and ethnic ratios are as you describe, but that doesn't justify this sort of generalization; it adds nothing of substance to the discussion and in fact changes the topic from one of socio-economic trends to a racial/ethnic trend, as though there's a need to stop young white or Asian males at the border and ask if they're going to ruin San Francisco.

Would you blame the financial meltdown of 2009 on those "greedy Jew bankers", based on the perception that Jews are over-represented in the top echelons of the financial industry?

Would you call gun homicide a "black problem" in the U.S. today, based on the fact that many gun homicides are committed by blacks?

Ethnic generalizations are rarely justifiable except arguably in airport security profiling where lives might be at stake, and even then a lot of innocent people get unfairly caught up in the dragnet.

Consider also the following thought experiment: you develop a brain condition that requires immediate surgery. You are assigned a surgeon who is world famous for treating your condition but you are unconscious. Later, after a successful operation, you discover the surgeon was a black woman. Do you then say, "Wow, what a strange thing that is!" or do you say, "I'm alive! Thank you for your help!"

In the end, it comes down to person-to-person interactions. Each of us is different, each of us unique, and ethnicity, nationality, age, and gender are textures that flavor our lives but don't in the end define us. Just my 2 cents!

When I moved to Santa Cruz (at the end of the nineties), my company eventually closed our office there and consolidated everyone into our office in downtown San Jose. No one wanted to work there, which I found weird at first (considering it wasn't very far away), but eventually understood.

San Jose was pretty shitty then (I have no idea what it's like now, but it sounds like it's basically the same).

I also didn't find anything redeeming about San Francisco (which I realize is a minority opinion), so I stayed in Santa Cruz as long as I could (before eventually relocating to DC after the company closed the rest of our offices out west).

Is there anyone on HN who works in the valley and lives in Santa Cruz?

I currently work in SF/live in Oakland, but my gf and I go to Santa Cruz pretty regularly over the weekends. I really like the vibe there- way more relaxed and less obsessed with the latest startups. You can take hikes, surf, enjoy the weather, have nice meals for less money than in the Bay Area, and without the pretension.

For now I'm in my mid-20s and content with going there one or two weekends a month; but if I still work in the bay area when I start to turn 30 and have kids, I think I'd much rather live in Santa Cruz.

I know Apple has a few SC shuttles; are they the only company? I'd love to hear any stories :)

No. Google has a shuttle from there. Additionally, I know of one LinkedIn employee who live in Santa Cruz as well (but I don't think they have a shuttle from there yet). That's a really shitty commute otherwise (Highway 17) with no shuttle, so those that do commute from there to the valley must have a pretty damn good reason.

Programmers who can work from home usually arrange to go over the hill on off hours or on an infrequent basis, which I think is typical. If you must work 9 to 5, yes the commute can be pretty bad, but by California standards not that bad.

How can someone say with a straight face that it's "pretty hard to screw up sushi"

That one got me too. It is empirically easy to screw up sushi. It is done all the time in countless bad sushi restaurants, which are far more numerous than the good ones.

Click the link. The joke is that he eats sushi with lots of wasabi, which overrides the taste of the actual roll.

May be the author is trying to say "For him its pretty easy to not get the difference between good and bad sushi"

It's pretty cool that at least two of the off-site links from that page are still live, considering how quickly most sites from that era fell into link rot:

"prefab hell" http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96sep/kunstler/k...

"sushi" http://www.lauralemay.com/essays/death-by-wasabi.html

Looks like The Atlantic decided to preserve the 1996 layout of the "prefab hell" article. It is refreshingly minimalistic -- no ads, no links to "Just In" or "Top 10" articles. I like it much better than the modern theatlantic.com

Much as I love bashing modern web design, I do prefer having more than six words to a line.

My wife dragged me kicking and screaming from Berkeley to Los Gatos in 2006. We lived there for 5 years. While San Jose has too much concrete, I must say I surprised myself by being deeply moved by the profound natural beauty of the valley, and even the suburban architecture there.

Suburban architecture is easy to ridicule (Kunstler does a good job), especially when you're a young professional looking for a mate. When you're raising two kids you start to understand it better. Today I see it as a fantastic setup -- almost utopian.

Sure, I appreciated being in the green and walkable Los Gatos downtown rather than San Jose proper. But the San Jose downtown is pretty nice! Not my type of scene, but it beats the zombies, human poo, getting mugged, ice cold fog, and dilapidated, frantic streets of San Francisco. Which is -- objectively, it must be noted -- a far better target for a nuke test.[1]

[1] The market agrees, for starters http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrennan/2013/10/16/silicon...

I encourage people to watch Fresh Off The Boat with Eddie Huang: Bay Area. In his short documentary series he tries different foods from different areas to get a feel of the culture. I really think his opinion about the food here resonates with the South Bay especially [0]. You wouldn't think that restaurants in strip malls would have good food or a lot of culture, but somehow we manage that here and I personally think the author is being too black and white in his analysis of San Francisco and San Jose.

[0] http://youtu.be/Ezq_96rookw?t=8m57s

The geography perfectly reflects the life stages of a middle class american. SF is young, fun and eat-out place and as you go south its gets older. San Jose is a middle-age boring place where people are busy with kids and other house chores.

How much has changed in 18 years? (article was written in 1996 by the look of it)

The best indian restaurant in bay area is Sakoon, on castro in MV, try the lunch buffet and kerala fish curry

The best japanese sushi in bay area is Hoshi in santa clara, try the toro.

The best vietnamese homestyle in bay area is Tofoo Com Chay in downtown san jose, try the vegetarian bamboo soup noodle

The best cheap michelin french in bay area is at Chez TJ, in downtown MV.

The best burmese restaurant in bay area is Rangoon Cafe in palo alto.

The best chinese hot pot in bay area is wuji hot pot in milpitas

The best indonesian restaurant in bay area is bay leaf in sunnyvale. try nasi bungkus

The best korean bbq in bay area is gooyi gooyi in santa clara CA

The best independent coffeeshops in bay area are in MV (dana street, red rock)

The best steakhouse in bay area is alexander steakhouse in cupertino

I disagree with this article, but in the interest of balancing your claims:

There are better rated restaurants in most of the categories you mentioned elsewhere in the Bay. For example, I know of at least two Indian places that I personally consider better than Sakoon and have better ratings on Yelp. There are a half dozen that have better ratings on Yelp but which I have never been to. And that's just within five miles of Menlo Park, to say nothing of the city.

You are of course free to your own opinion, but I'd caution other readers that this is just one opinion among many, and is probably not as near the mean as one might hope given the authoritative tone of the assertions made.

And to add to the point above, Yelp ratings are not well-normalized across markets. The things that people care about in the 'burbs is different than in the city and places get voted up or down for odd reasons.

For example, Joya in Palo Alto is a pretty amazing restaurant but only gets 3.5 stars. The Cheesecake Factory (which is a pretty crappy chain) gets a 5. This is not really good data.

You are not wrong, and I hope my hedging made it clear that I do not consider Yelp authoritative either. It is a signal among many.

which 2 indian places do you consider to be better?

I would say Little India Cafe is better value for money, and Amber is better quality food overall.

All of those places were somewhere on my list of good places (but not at the top) at some time in the past and have fallen off as I have discovered even better places.

Hoshi is still great though and one of my favorites, but definitely not the best sushi in the South Bay. Also - you can't judge a sushi place by its toro according to Jiro-san.

would love your list then :)

Hachi Ju Hachi for Japanese. Kebab and Curry for Indian.

I think the peninsula is getting better, but we've still got a long way to go. The astronomical rents in SF are causing a lot of places to move down to the valley. There was a good article which just came out on the peninsula dining scene in the Palo Alto Weekly talking about the renaissance in dining.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2014/01/17/palo-altos-din...

Renaissance would imply "re-birth" though, which I'm not sure good dining ever existed here. :-D

Some of this list is just plain incorrect.

For example, Rangoon Ruby in Palo Alto is a pale imitation of Burma Superstar in San Francisco, a restaurant is openly models itself after.

Claiming that the best independent coffeeshop is in MV is really going out on a limb and ignoring the myriad of amazing coffee houses in SF - like Sightglass or Blue Bottle.

As someone who's lived in the city and in Sunnyvale and Palo Alto and Menlo Park, I pretty much agree with every that jwz has said and not much has changed.

It's true that there are some great places on the peninsula, but there's no critical mass. And often those places are in a strip mall and severely lacking in ambiance and atmosphere.

Not to detract from your point, but Burma Superstar has locations in Oakland and Alameda (Alameda almost never has a line) and Blue Bottle's roastery is in Oakland as well. Also Philz.

Tofoo Com Chay is superb and that kind of place (Dong Phuong Tofu is another good one) is found only in SJ. Although Oakland's Chinatown has a great Banh Mi place, Cam Huong.

I also visited a Blue Bottle in NYC and had some of the best coffee of my trip.

I brought up dana roasting and red rock cafe not because they only have great coffee, but also they have a great atmosphere with lively discussions amongst thinkers and live music to boot. No coffeeshops in san francisco has that great combination.

http://www.vivesol.biz/mountainview/

And while there's many good places in the area that serve a good burrito or tao lunch, you need to ViVe Sol if you wan the best Mexican cuisine.

Stay away from the things you can get anywhere - the good stuff starts with their incredible mole, home-style casseroles, steaks covered in roasted peppers, etc.

Mmmm... spicy chocolate chicken...

I dunno. Maybe I have no taste, but sometimes I go up to the city and eat someplace and the food is crap. Sometimes I eat down here and it's good. As a matter of degrees, I won't deny the city is better, not to mention being a cheaper place to live in most parts. But it's not quite as black and white as all this.

Mountain View is not worse in this regard than any other suburban city. It's better than most. But it isn't a Big City, and only a foolish person could expect it to be, given its population density.

San Jose also has some the best and/or cheapest Vietnamese food in the bay area...pho and bahn mi....yum.

ok, some of this is ridiculous

- sushi is really easy to screw up, just buy really crappy fish, and alot of people do that

- there's awesome chinese food and vietnamese food in san jose, much better than most of SF, second only to LA in the states.

This blog post was written almost two decades ago.

... and, honestly? Not much has changed. The cultural zeitgeist of both SJ and SF are very much the same.

Oh wow.. ok I live in Mountain View and I love it here. Here are what I consider my fav in Mountain View: (http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-california/mount...) from Coffee Shops like Red Rock to Sushi Tomi for Sushi. And even though the writer from JWZ believes you cannot mess up sushi you can. Poor quality sushi tastes like rubber. Oh oh.. there is also Gelato Classico - amazing Gelato! Also let's not forget what I believe is the best Farmers Markets in the Peninsula in Mountain View: http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-california/farme... The only thing Mountain View lacks is a top notch breakfast place.

I'd say he's right about the SF food. I haven't been to San Jose but I've been to SF and every meal I had there was awesome. I'm from Vancouver though, so it's probably quite similar in terms of Asian cuisine quality.

Oh yeah and the prefab article was a great read. I do find it sad how many ugly, dreary buildings went up in our cities. At least now they're starting to make better looking stuff, but nothing as timeless and beautiful as the older classical buildings (ie typically 1900's bank buildings).

Its gotten better in terms of cuisine since 1996 with all the funny money floating around constantly.

Then again, you have to deal with all the people that this has attracted in Palo Alto and Mountain View.

The problem with San Jose is that the street layout was built during the 50's and 60's when cars were king. Now people want to walk or bike, and San Jose is not friendly at all for that. The office parks are on major thorough fares, which enclose neighborhoods without cross streets, but rather a maze of cul-de-sacs. The authors description of a "sickening suburban sprawl" still applies, which is why people want to get out. It's claustrophobic.

OP should modify the title to clarify that this was 1996.

I would be surprised that people here wouldn't be able to tell by the HTML.

Actually, the air quality is much better now than it was in the 1990s.

Based on this 2009 report, combining historic and forecast data,air quality in general is substantially improved since 1996. Carbon Monoxide, in particular

page 4-6 http://www.arb.ca.gov/aqd/almanac/almanac09/pdf/chap409.pdf

Am I the only person around here who actually enjoys living in the South Bay? Other than how much it costs, of course.

Should hang out with the boys and girls from east side. Get down a little bit, learn to hang a little bit.

Pretentious hipsters ruining SF since the last century.

Whining is forever.

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