Hacker News Reader

Comment by eloff | Hacker News Reader

How meaninglessly proletarian and small minded. Like the smashing of weaving machines during the industrial revolution. The impossible fight against change and the inexorable march of technology. Also shame on France for imposing a minimum 15 minute delay for picking up a customer. France, where free market competition is second to politics and special interests. Look at the anti Amazon legislation.

View on HN

You're only partially right.

"Free market" is not really a reality in France; it's not just "second to politics", it is hated for its own sake. Competition is considered a bad thing; the reasoning is that it leads to waste, that resources are better allocated when centrally planed by civil servants who don't have a dog in the race. Many sectors in France still operate exactly like that, in 2014 -- not just taxis; for example if you want to sell cigarettes you have to apply for a licence to the state and you'll only get it if you're far away enough from other cigarette sellers.

It must sound crazy to non-French people but that's just the way it is; is it sub-optimal? Yes. Stupid? Probably. Will it ever change? I wouldn't hold my breath. This is how this country is and thinks.

But, in the case of the taxis, they have a reason to be upset; they all buy their licence for a very expensive price (I believe half a million Euros), usually borrow the money for it and have to somehow pay it back. If they are suddenly out of business or their licence worth nothing, it's a problem.

In order to free this market, the problem of the licence has to be addressed (state buy-back?); or, maybe, the govt. can decide you don't need a licence anymore: taxis will be extremely upset for a while, and then when the dust settles the problem is solved.

In typical French fashion however, the current govt. has decided nothing; non-taxi taxis can operate with a stupid 15 minutes delay, which is supposed to appease the incumbents.

This 15 minutes delay is even worse than it sounds, because it doesn't apply to 4- and 5-star hotels!! (And this is a leftist government). If you want to call Uber from the desk of the George-V you don't have to wait; if however you're calling from Hotel Ibis in Pantin then you do have to wait.

Go figure.

If you want to call Uber from the desk of the George-V you don't have to wait; if however you're calling from Hotel Ibis in Pantin then you do have to wait.

I'm sure lobby groups had nothing to do with this at all.

How does this work with the app? Do they geo-locate you and make sure your phone is sufficiently close to a 4/5 star hotel before sending you a car without delay?

> How does this work with the app?

I'm not sure, but I believe you always have to wait, except if the hotel calls on your behalf and asks for a pickup in front of said hotel.

Ah, OK. I've never used a phone in conjunction with summoning an Uber car (except when the assigned driver has called me).

Small correction : taxi licenses worth 230.000 euros max (in Paris)

230,000 in other notation.

it's not just the French, in case anyone is wondering

Good point I'll edit it.

The polite way to internationalize is just to use a space. Then everybody is equally confused.

or just 10 in base 230,000

> Like the smashing of weaving machines during the industrial revolution

I know, the buggy-whip manufacturers are doomed to be replaced by the... slightly-more-sophisticated app-supported buggy-whip-manufacturers.

Seriously, Uber's success doesn't come from spectacular disruptive technology, they succeed by circumventing the absurd regulatory capture that exists in the taxi market in some cities.

Regulatory capture which exists because, before it existed, taxi drivers used to riot and attack each other.

With potential supply consisting of "everyone with a car", either prices would be driven down to bankruptcy, or with prices fixed by law, demand would be smeared too thin, or (as actually happened) means of limiting the supply would be created (violence and mob links outside the law, or regulation inside it).

The problem is that with the medallion system, you're turning the ability to drive a cab into property. As such, it becomes a /lot/ harder to reasonably control supply, because adding medallions will garner protests from the existing holders, regardless of the needs of the city. Additionally, with the costs of these medallions, it becomes a lot harder for a middle class person to get started in the taxi business; you have to join one of the cartels and curry favor with them in order to have a chance to drive and get decent dispatches.

I'd argue that the best way to handle the taxi drivers of all sorts is to move to a licensing system. Give priority to existing drivers, but at the same time, allow flexibility in setting the supply to give the little guy a chance to compete. Taxi systems in most city are corrupt from top to bottom, and these actions in France just show how the drivers are willing to go along with the broken system at hand.

I came to realize a system like medallions were needed when seeing taxis clog traffic after venues with well paying customers were over. Supply is far more than demand in these cases, and even apps with scheduling won't keep the streets from being clogged beyond reason.

Humans are a funny bunch who overall suck are cooperation, specially when trying the role of a worker ant.

That sounds like a traffic control problem, a public transportation problem, and an event planning problem related to specific events rather than a need for medallions.

Once the people are already there, they need to get home somehow -- what do you expect? How do fewer taxis help the problem?

"That sounds like a traffic control problem, a public transportation problem.."

All those things come into play when regulating how many registered taxis are allowed on the street. Or the decision to regulate at all. Also its one of the sticking points for locales as to why they want to regulate operators like Uber as local planners need to be aware of them and their numbers.

"..and an event planning problem related to specific events"

The venues don't really have a say in who parks out in public streets, they can raise complaints if it becomes a problem though and often try to cash in by hiring services themselves. The more monied customers will most likely not ride the meat bus over to a public transit hub though.

A licensing system would be more flexible there, as you could have categories of licenses to handle different types of demand -- rush hour taxis, etc. With a medallion system, every holder has a heavy financial incentive for their cab to be in service 24/7, due to its very high cost, meaning that during special events, you can and will get an excess in cabs.

"prices would be driven down to bankruptcy"

Ample competition doesn't mean bankruptcy.

Ample competition for a mostly-inelastic price-sensitive demand drives prices right down to break-even (or below), forcing all the small operators out of the market and resulting in consolidation and cartelization.

I am studying economics atm, could you please provide a citation or an example of an industry that competition for mostly-inelastic price-sensitive demand drives prices down to break-even?

If I may: Uber success comes from the feedback mechanism that drives the quality of the ride — at least in Paris. Taxi services are slightly cheaper, and in my case (lived 20 years on the top roaming axis) and all my friends, generally quite fast. I’ve been happy to pay extra to be in a car where the guy doesn’t smoke or actively tries to roll over bicycles, respects road safety, or asks me to support deeply racists views. When travelling, I don’t mind carrying my luggage, but I like to pick it up from a safe place, not the middle of the busiest boulevard. I also occasionally appreciate when the guy doesn’t respond “Where the fuck is that hellhole?!” when I give my address (that happens to be the easiest to locate in Paris — it's literally so symbolic that it's the one used by the taxi union for their official photo).

To be honest, my uncle has access to a premium taxi service: the yearly fee is a bit high for me to consider it, but the service is similar (minus the iDevice charger until recently) and I have no qualms with them. I generally frown on luxury, but common taxi drivers are so horrible creatures that I gladly shell out to Uber when I need to.

Would you be shocked to find out those horrible creatures moon-light with services like Uber? Filthy horrible bunch right?

> slightly-more-sophisticated app-supported buggy-whip-manufacturers

Hard to say. Regular taxis in Berlin have a very Uber-like app, and even though Uber is available here, I've never thought of taking it instead of a regular cab. Convenience level is about the same (though taxis win by being more ubiquitous and probably cheaper)

If you look at it as them managing the economy and the survival of its people, at least putting into place temporary measures to delay the speed of the change, this is the why. France has other mechanisms in place, such as only a certain number of pharmacists serving a population, so then there's not too much competition so a job can exist - instead of perhaps two stressed out pharmacists competing in different ways in order to win over enough consumers. I know it's very different thinking than "free market" - however the U.S. doesn't practice pure free market either, not at all.

> How meaninglessly proletarian and small minded.

How meaninglessly privileged and small minded.

> France, where free market competition is second to politics and special interests.

As it should be. Free market is like a wind, and sometimes you have to protect yourself from it.

politics is like a hailstorm of sharp swords, and you always have to protect yourself from it. Unless you're politically privileged. Come on. France is Especially Bad, a vast majority of civil servants and even worse for high ranking political officials come from the same college (Ecole Sciences-Po).

"Politics (from Greek: politikos, meaning "of, for, or relating to citizens") is the practice and theory of influencing other people on a civic or individual level."

For someone who supposedly hates politics, you seem to be engaging yourself in it quite enthusiastically - as do most people on this site. Or anywhere, really.

I'd comment on your sentence that seems to relate to France if it were a sentence. I think you might be putting low-ranking civil servants in the same bag as oligarchs from the top, which is foolish to say the least. But you generally seem to be confusing politics with oligarchy and/or oligarchy (that part about being politically privileged supports that theory quite strongly). Not sure how you're going to protect yourself from that without, you know, politics.

As a side note, that's why I've started to prefer getting low-to-none-upvotes: in a way shouting into the vacuum is better than answering comments like this one.

excuse me, I should have said "political power" not politics. Nit picking about whether or not a sentence is a sentence. Intelectuellement touche-pepe with the greek roots. Let me guess, are you a Sciences Po? Or worse, an enarque?

Let me guess, you’re a privileged white rich male unwilling to acknowledge your privilege who can’t imagine a less privileged person would ever stand up to them?

I didn’t give you the etymology, I gave you the encyclopedic definition. Which mentions etymology, true. But you are even trying to perform politics and change the balance of power by ridiculing the (imagined) me right now, which is what I pointed out.

Also, seriously, you’re trying to complain about privilege and political power while scorning the workers. That’s ridiculous.

actually, no, I'm asian, I'm a scientist, I'm currently unemployed (but not taking assistance, I'm ineligible, and anyways I saved up knowing this would happen), and I run a non-profit that is attempting to cure cancer. (check my profile if you don't believe me)

> How meaninglessly proletarian and small minded.

You think this violence is representative of the working class? That's a pretty dismal view of a huge part of society.

I'm hoping it's just that you lack a full command of that word...

Violence certainly does not represent the entire working class, but it is rare that you see Wall Street bankers rioting in the street.

Neither do you see the lottery winners rioting.

> but it is rare that you see Wall Street bankers rioting in the street

That's more about privilege than about class. I'd love to see what Wall Street bankers as a class would come up with if they felt their livelihoods were at risk.

Yeah, because if anything hasn't been at risk in the last 5 years, it has been the livelihood of bankers. Oh wait, no, they just jump off buildings.

A recession, a bailout, and a capital-making boom while the world recovers, maybe?

They commit acts by other means. Why risk your pretty face when you can hire a thug? Why Protest in the street and risk bad publicity, hire someone else to do it. I'm not trying to pass judgment on which is "better" or right/wrong. Simply trying to indicate that different classes have different tools to achieve their aims.

So if you agree the different classes act through different means, then do you disagree that rioting is pretty blue-collar, i.e. proletariat?

You don't need to riot in the street when you own the street.

"We don't own the street. We are the street."

> it is rare that you see Wall Street bankers rioting in the street.

For the same reason you don't see CEOs snatching purses.

They riot by calling the White House.

"Too big to fail!" And yet, surprising, not too big to be considered a security threat to the entire United States. My, what lovely clothes you're wearing today, Emperor!

You should see what the farmers do if there's an attempt to reform the CAP - major riots and they burnt down a town hall the last time.

Right?? You would think taxi drivers wouldn't be blind to the possibility of disruption. Look at the music industry and many others. I can't wait for all remaining crap services to be forcefully improved.

While you might slag their politics off all you like, I've not been in small towns in the UK that still have the incredible sense of community that the French towns do.

Part of that's to do with this sort of protectionism. Capitalism is not a panacea for all ills.

Perhaps it doesn't happen in small towns, but French drivers attacking other French drivers doesn't strike me as a healthy sense of community.

"The impossible fight against change and the inexorable march of technology."

The internal combustion engine?

> How meaninglessly proletarian and small minded.

They're not exactly brain surgeons.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com