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>> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture

Sorry, but the hatred for RapGenius doesn't come from programmers hating black culture. It's from the founders being fake, and as you said, douchebags. They're three white Yale graduates trying way too hard and ultimately being inauthentic. That's what's off-putting -- saying things like "baller-sourced" [1] just is an obvious ploy, appropriating words to give themselves fake credentials and personalities as rap aficionados.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo (~1:30)

If you have any evidence that their love of rap/hiphop is a front please share. I don't see how anybody who wasn't saturated in that culture would have even thought of rapgenius.

If you dislike hiphop and its message, say so. If you have something stronger than a disapproval of white guys imbibing black culture, say so.

Hiphop is art but the culture it promotes is far from healthy. Kids who can get into Yale are unlikely to be harmed by it but for the working class it's a negative; People would do better with boring bourgeois values.

I enjoyed the post.

My take on the this is that tremendous amount of access politics in the Bay Area seem to revolve around where you went to school and what your pedigree is, and that since those are very highly correlated with the class you were born into, it ends up being emergently classist.

Poor people mostly don't go to the schools that matriculate the players who participate in the traditional valley power scene. I don't buy that this scene is any more racist than the rest of the US, and probably would argue that it is less so. But in terms of class bias, I think considerably greater. And the low incidence of black and latino folks can be attributed significantly to their statistically-lower class distribution.

As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene. Actually haven't met a lot of technology workers that are.

This is in contrast to the environment when I worked in finance in NYC and London. I found that scene to be transparently racist and sexist, but there are very many powerful white dudes who started off poor and lower-class.

"As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene."

Hi!

I think it's safe to say the conditions and environment that enabled your rise in SV were much different than what exists now.

Yes. It's easier for people from lower class backgrounds to break into SV than it was 1-2 decades ago.

College admissions' focus on social justice has only increased over the past few decades (% of low-income students at the very top universities has only gone up). The proliferation of angel money means that it is actually easier for you to get the connections necessary for VC. In the past, VC was an even tighter and more exclusive circle than it is today.

Also 100% correct.

As you say, the strong social justice momentum in the US has made it easier for people from lower class backgrounds to be admitted to top-tier schools.

This does not mean that it is easy, nor common. The measurement is against a low base.

The fact of the matter is that being born lower-class means that it is very likely that you will not move out of that class during your lifetime.

Lots of interesting data here: http://www.pewstates.org/projects/economic-mobility-project-...

WRT the ease of breaking into Silicon Valley, I don't have any basis for comparison. As you may have inferred, I'm a person from a lower class background who broke in during the early-mid-90s and had my life forever changed as a result. Including class mobility.

My anecdotal point above was just that, an anecdotal point.

You are not refuting anything I've said.

I only commented on relative difficulty.

Yes - we agree

Are they really? I remember what the web was like in 1993. It was a hobby, there were no big players, and all the major corporate attention was focused on WebTV, virtual reality, RISC architectures, 3D computer graphics, and other "big ideas". Much like people think of mobile, Google X, hardware startups, the sharing economy, etc. today.

There are a number of technologies now that remind me a lot of what the web was in 1993. BitCoin. 3D printing. Common Crawl. And there are enabling technologies like smartphones and cloud computing that aren't being used to their fullest potential. I suspect that the same conditions that led to Marc's rise still exist in other areas, we just won't know what those areas are until a whole new ecosystem has risen.

100% correct.

I buy this. In fact IMO the opportunity for other folks to make rapid, very widely felt, and profitable changes to the fabric of society is probably more available than ever before.

(Technology diffuses over punctuated equilibria. And the ability to which an individual can innovate, the amount of upside leverage they retain to financial performance, and the speed at which innovations diffuse have all increased since the mid-90s.)

Can you cite any facts that would indicate you didn't just pull that out of your rear?

An amusing and unexpected response, but while you're here, I'd be interested to know your read on this. Do you believe that there is a material % of such folks? Is it the sense you get that the incidence is similar to that found in other industries? Do you disagree with the other notions re: access or class-vs-race?

> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture

I love rap. Heck, I even do it myself (badly and in German though, so no links). I still can't stand baller "culture", and before you think that's just a while middle-class dude not checking his privilege, read this:

> What really hurts me sometimes is that there’s not a lot of consciousness in their music. There could be a whole lot more. Rapping is communicating-it should be an instrument for our liberation. We don’t have time to talk about being players and hustlers and gangsters. We didn’t come off of the slave ships that way. We need to become proud Africans again and stop running around in Shirley Temple curls talkin’ ‘bout how we’re pimps and players. A lot of the symbols that are in rap records and videos are indications of decadent consumerism and in a very real sense, those gold chains, hundred-dollar sneakers and T-shirts with a designer’s name on it underline how much they’ve become enslaved by the consumer mentality in the United States-consumer slaves.

-- Assata Shakur

It's not respectful to support self-harm because "that's just how the culture is", it's simply not knowing any decent rap and having no comparison. Rap is infected with bullshit, IMHO exactly because it could and should be such a powerful thing. Conscious rap is potentially dangerous; talking about bling and bitches is not.

As for rapgenius, compare the obsession with it on HN with the "who? stop spamming us with ads" reactions on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=rapgenius - Hilarious.

> I don't know these people personally but I've deep respect for those that understand inequality, and wish to pay it more than just lip service.

That is how I found it. I started reading it because of a catchy title, then go into it and learned a bit more about the Valley culture. Personally I don't know much and am not usually interested in start-ups, but after being here for years, feels like I should know more so once in a while I would read stuff about it.

Also this kind of reminded me of an older satirical post about the Valley and start-up culture -- "We'll Be Circling Back" by Harj Taggar http://paulgraham.com/circling.html

there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture which seems to aggravate every single PR problem they have.

Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different. First, there are several different black cultures: everything from upper-middle-class to working-class to poor African-American, plus several Afro-Caribbean cultures, plus a huge number of distinct African cultures.

Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley (not the only one) and we need outlets like Valleywag to remind everyone how ridiculous it is.

>> Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different.

You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture. If the stylings and bravado at RapGenius weren't related to culture from rap/hip-hop I'd be very surprised.

In the past in the UK we used to have "Wigger" culture [0] and it actually was fairly similar... I don't think this anger has anything to do with being a douchebag. I've met people that dressed and spoke weirdly that have been perfectly nice people. I think that people recognise the style as douchebag because it's uncomfortable for them to see white people "acting black".

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger

Stop.

>> You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture.

Oh, they're trying alright.

Said douchebags are roughly as representative of black culture as Ali G was. Though it would seem they're not in on the joke.

There is no "channelling" going on. You can be a person of any color who appreciates and celebrates hip hop culture without reducing its participants to cardboard cut-outs.

There's no joke here. And little harm being done. RapGenius is a well loved by its market.

If you believe that how people dress and speak defines their worthiness as a human being (and it seems you do) then go along your own way.

I do not.

This isn't complicated.

There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist. And when you willfully adopt a racist affectation because despite being a Yale/Stanford Law grad you're apparently incapable of understanding how fucking offensive that is, I am not obligated to show you one single iota of respect.

These guys don't represent anyone but themselves, and—of late—they're doing a poor job of it.

(btw — I think Rap Genius is a great product. I hope its founders don't ruin it.)

>> This isn't complicated.

Stop insinuating that I don't understand you. I understand you, I just disagree with you.

>> There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist.

Do you think that they believe they are acting moronically?

Or is this perception of moronic behaviour your own? If it's the latter - which I expect it is - then you are projecting racism onto them. It's not something which is intrinsic - it requires the perceiver to have your value system.

(My perception is that they are not acting like morons. And that it's all just good fun.)

The problem I have with this whole argument is that even if a guy had a popped collar, was wearing dark sunglasses inside and kept saying everything was "baller", I'd prefer him infinitely over the guy that looked at him and declared him to be "moronic" and a "douchebag" because of his style. One is harmless but the other is something which to me signifies a close-minded asshole.

You asserted that the douchebags with popped collars saying stupid shit are "channel[ling] black culture." You further asserted that the primary objection to "'wigger' culture" (wow) is that white people "acting black" makes other white people uncomfortable.

Your assertions are objectively false.

You also suggested that the negative reaction to the objectionable behavior of the Rap Genius founders is in fact not a reaction to specific behavior by specific individuals, but part of an "undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called 'douchebag') culture". I don't even know what to do with that.

>>The problem I have with this whole argument is that even if a guy had a popped collar, was wearing dark sunglasses inside and kept saying everything was "baller", I'd prefer him infinitely over the guy that looked at him and declared him to be "moronic" and a "douchebag"

Good for you. I know plenty of black folks who wouldn't.

>> You asserted that the douchebags with popped collars saying stupid shit are "channel[ling] black culture."

I didn't say anything about people saying stupid shit. A negative statement like that would be inconsistent with the rest of my argument.

I also didn't say that they were douchebags. I said "(so-called "douchebag")" which is a british word to show that you believe a term is unsuitable and not correct [0] also I said: "I think that people recognise the style as douchebag because it's uncomfortable for them to see white people "acting black"." I was implying that it was just a term which people use to describe a behaviour that they do not like for classist/racist reasons but which allows them to dodge allegations as such.

>> You further asserted that the primary objection to "'wigger' culture" (wow) is that white people "acting black" makes other white people uncomfortable.

Yes. I believe there is a heck of a lot of underlying racism there - and that we're seeing the same thing here.

>> Good for you. I know plenty of black folks who wouldn't.

Who am I to take away somebody's right to be a dick or offended?

I don't want to continue arguing anyway - my core point was that we shouldn't judge books by their covers: there are plenty of people that speak differently and wear very different clothes from both you and me and we should allow them to be and (in the case of the OP, instead of RapGenius) actively include them in our own culture.

[0] http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/so-called

>shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard")

People are saying that second one out loud? How?

My mental image of what SV is like gets sillier by the day. I should draw a comic or something.

We should start the same thing in the UK. I'm gonna put "RIP Esco" at the end of every presentation from now on. Showerman mode.

"Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley."

I don't work with anyone who sounds IN ANY WAY like what you're describing. I won't go so far as to say I think you're making it up, but if this is real, it's doing a very good job of hiding from us at least.

"Is anybody else genuinely annoyed that sites such as angel.co use these as legitimising signals of worthiness?"

Absolutely. AngelList is all about institutional brands, and that's kind of sad. Teams are summarized by where they studied and worked, not what they accomplished, or what people think of them.

It always struck me as a lazy 'old boys club' method of filtering people and ideas.