London's first pay-per-minute cafe
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Of course, it would be easy to create an environment that deterred laptop users if that's not compatible with what they're hoping to achieve.
£9 would get you four loaves of bread[2] and three jars of peanut butter[3]. You'd have to be pretty hungry to eat enough of that for them to make a loss.
I assume the concept is fairly experimental at the moment, presumably they won't want people sprinting in, making an espresso for 3p and running out. Or I might have misunderstood what I read in [1]. In any case, it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.
[1] http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/08/pay-per-minute-c... [2] https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Wholemeal-Bread-Medium... [3] https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Crunchy-Peanut-Butter-...
I guess if you were homeless it might be worth £9 a day to have somewhere warm and indoors to stay, but the free entry museums, art galleries and libraries don't seem to get full of homeless people.
I have heard reports of 'pay what you like' restaurants getting filled up with homeless people, so I can see where you're coming from.
That's really funny. Who would have thought there were more people who like eating for cheap than people who like paying for other people to eat for cheap?
Security Guards.
Also, dress codes are most likely in effect.
But when it comes down to it... they're actually $12/meal minimum throughout the week, and on wednesdays (most B&M business' slowest day in north america at least) they offer something like 50 meals which are "pay what you want" and once they're out of food, they're out.
In other words, "pay what you want" restaurants don't technically exist. Not in the long run. They're more of a marketing gimmick if you ask me.
The free rider problem is a very real thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
That said, if I were still poor, I wouldn't want to keep my stuff in the freezer at one of these pay-per-minute cafes, because it'd be gone by the next time you got to it. I also assume that they lock up at night, so I'm not really sure how this'd help vagrants all that much.
However, if you happened to be lucky with the other people in the cafe (i.e. no-one being obnoxious or noisy), then it makes a ridiculously cheap coworking space.
Although it depends on your oven if gas or electric, your time and effort, how much power a bread machine uses. The oven makes bread far better than a bread machine but a bread machine is better than mass produced, sliced, preservative laden white bread.
But you could time it so the bread is baked when the oven is used for cooking supper.
FYI /r/breadit
The machine is useful if you're not good at/willing to/able to plan a bit. You have to do a number of steps on a schedule when baking by hand, there's only one to worry about with a machine.
It is very little total work (15 minutes max) and makes great bread, but it does require some planning ahead because of the long rise time.
What really annoys me is that it's possible to make bread that lasts for >30 days, but they don't due to people's stupid phobias of food treatments. Before I started freezing it all the time, I used to waste so much from it going mouldy, so I'd bet many people still do.
Or if someone is a real cheapskate, they could come here twice a day (£3.6) for two meals. They have coffee, fruits, veges and a kitchen - what else do you need?
Where?
I think the author was hoping to encourage startups out of the free seats! ;)
[1] - Campus London FAQ - http://www.campuslondon.com/faq/
[2] - Campus London Price List (managed by TechHub) - http://www.techhub.com/blog/types-of-membership/
As mentioned above, the cafe is free and run by Central Working. You can use it Monday to Friday, 9am - 6pm. You get free wifi. You have to pay for coffee, but it is very good (provided by Dose Espresso, who use Square Mile Roasters).
TechHub (who run 1st and 2nd floors) offer resident or flex membership. Flex gives you access Monday - Friday, 9am - 8pm. Resident gives you 24/7 access with your own desk. Everybody gets free coffee and toast.
3rd floor changes from month to month, but doesn't usually offer coworking.
Seedcamp are on the 4th floor. Obviously, you only get to use that space if you have been accepted into Seedcamp.
5th floor is used by Google themselves.
For example: "its so cheap, I might as well stay until I finish this coffee"
Or "I don't want to appear to be abusing this system, so I will stay and be a part of this place, as other people don't do this"
I live in Toronto and I can't remember when was the last time my wife and I were able to enjoy a latte while sitting at a Starbucks or Timothys. Nowadays, it seems all coffee shops are overrun with kids doing their homework or whatever. The worst part is that the laptop/tablet people barely make eye contact with others; they are so engrossed in their screen !
Thankfully,we found a smaller coffee shop which does not offer Wifi and where the owners discourage loitering / homeworks.
After graduating I moved to the suburbs, where Starbucks is rammed with high school students doing homework but the public library across the street is empty despite having more comfortable seating, faster Wi-Fi and you know, actually being intended as an open public space for quiet reading and study.
My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.
Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. It must be something else.
If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers.
There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.
Totally agree about the McDonald's effect. When traveling I am often happy to enter the Mermaid's consistent embrace.
You can see just from looking in the grinders that their beans are over-roasted (which I guess improves consistency but destroys flavour) and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk.
I have huge respect for what Starbucks does. For decades, most roasters got their start at Starbucks or Tullys.
In the 10 million pounds of beans Starbucks buys every year, there's some percentage that must be awesome. Buying for myself, I'll get seasonals, varietals, vs the blends. Panama, harar, sumatra. Starbucks also sells whole bean light roast for tastes like my gf's, like the blond, which is sometimes available as drip over the counter.
But mostly I buy either Herkimer or Lighthouse. They're indies, who obsess over the product, from purchasing thru roasting thru pulling the shots.
herkimercoffe.com
lighthouseroasters.com
Pretty sure there's no syrup or milk in my coffee when they hand it to me over the counter at my local starbucks.
"in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program."
Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way?
I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
It doesn't matter what I think, you can read what they said. Of course it's not Starbucks quality level, but it's not great coffee, just good enough for the other qualities to win over better tasting coffees.
Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way?
Sure, the way multiple coffee shops do so here: you buy a decent Italian espresso machine (such as a La Marzocco), you get a few baristas with a couple of decades or more of experience serving coffee, buy decent beans and grind them yourself daily.
Of course, this isn't reasonable if you're a restaurant which serves a few dozen cups a day, which are just a small part of the whole "product". But for a dedicated coffee shop, which might serve more than a hundred per day, the costs are reasonable.
I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself
I didn't say that. I have a capsule machine myself. But I don't need to make better coffee to know that better coffee is made.
Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers.
Sure, Nespresso is a great value for its price. But nothing in that process is better than what I'm describing.
Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort?
Not restaurant, coffee shop. And I don't know what you consider "reasonable". The reason they do better is because they have different constraints in terms of space, marginal costs per cup and importance of the coffee to their line up, which allows them to invest more in it.
Coffee simply doesn't have this.
Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
So which part of this makes the coffee better than Nespresso? Is the espresso machine doing something better than a nespresso machine? I don't think so. Are the beans being grinded better than in a nespresso factory? I don't think so. Are the beans themselves of higher quality than the ones that nespresso uses? Perhaps, though unlikely to be a significant difference unless you are willing to pay a much higher price, and even then. Even if these is some small advantage that the barista can have, does that weigh against the advantages that Nespresso has, namely being able to perfectly tune the whole process with taste testers?
> Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
Why? What is the difference between a coffee particle sitting "inside" a bean, and sitting tightly packed in a vacuum? And if there is an important difference, why is the former better? For all we know it tastes worse.
There is at least one blind taste test that was done: http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/julian-baggini-coffee-ar...
Admittedly not very scientific with a low sample size, but the result of this test was that Nespresso is better than the coffee of an experienced barista. At the very least there isn't an obvious perceptible difference in favor of the barista. Do you know of any blind taste tests showing the opposite?
Why not? Why is it so hard to believe that an hand-made machine that costs an order of magnitude more can actually produce a better result?
For example, the size allows the La Marzocco to have two different water heating chambers at different temperatures, which is impossible with the size of a Nespresso.
Even if these is some small advantage that the barista can have, does that weigh against the advantages that Nespresso has, namely being able to perfectly tune the whole process with taste testers?
It can't perfectly tune the process, because the machine itself isn't perfectly tuned. It's designed to be cheap, small and easy to mass-produce.
They do a great job, but the constraints are simply different.
Why? What is the difference between a coffee particle sitting "inside" a bean, and sitting tightly packed in a vacuum?
Because the exposure to some air has already happened, and the process doesn't stop after you closed it in vaccum (which itself is never perfect).
Do you know of any blind taste tests showing the opposite?
A simple search links to http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and-tests/food-and-health/f...
By the way, from your link:
The key descriptors for Nespresso were ‘smooth’ and ‘easy to drink’. And from the point of view of restaurateurs who use it, the key word is ‘consistency’. It was far from bland, but it was not challenging or distinctive either. It’s a coffee everyone can really like but few will love: the highest common denominator, if you like
Sounds right.
http://en.ilovecoffee.jp/posts/view/71
To me, good coffee means unadulterated as much as using high quality ingredients/equipment and having lots of caffeine.
Arguably, the first clause of that sentence is disproved by the second one.
I'm not particularly fond of Starbucks coffee, either. But clearly plenty of people are, and their preferences are no less valid than mine.
Any development that lures these people away from my Starbucks is OK in my book.
edit : some typos.
Given how heavily Starbucks not only offers but advertises its free Wifi (as does McDonald's), my guess is that they do actually intend their stores to attract laptop/tablet users.
There's Verve downtown, where low table-density in a big room with a high ceiling creates islands where patrons can isolate themselves from one another. I'm guessing this makes it a place where (mostly young?) people can be productive on their devices.
Then there's a place like Lulu's (right across the street!), that's more cramped and has a more traditional/low-light ambiance, where it's basically impossible to ignore the people around you (I hope I don't make it sound like that's a bad thing).
Do they expect profit..? Or is the rest of the service industry just gouging us silly?
[edit: typo]
I agree that the business might seem risky in quite some ways, but .. exploits like yours are probably possible in a lot of places. I'm reasonably sure that I could go to a good number of hotels, check in for a number of days, have my breakfast/empty the minibar and leave. Going to a cafe and leaving without paying is usually trivial, only social norms stop you from doing that (or .. don't).
- all hotels that I know of (and I traveled quite a lot. In fact I write this from a hotel in Bern, CH) charge you at the end of your stay. A good number of hotels don't check your ID/your personal information. My point above was to just leave early, with or without clearing the minibar. It's possible and not hard.
- I know more than a handful of people that just go to the reception, pay for the room. 'Sir, did you take anything from the minibar?' - 'No'. Of course they did. Now the hotel certainly can (after the guest departed) find out that it was cheated. And now .. what? The guest was probably from another country. Are you going to send a bill and hope for them to pay after lying to you previously? For a beer or three? Turns out .. a lot of hotels don't do that and never reach out to you.
(Disclaimer: I haven't done that myself, I'm too cheap to buy the minibar items. My minimbar, at right this moment, is filled with beer I bought at a supermarket and brought to my room. But I _have_ been part of these exploits over and over again, even standing next to people that declined the question of whether they used the minibar and I was in their room! There are usually no consequences. If there are, you can ignore it - or say 'Oh, yeah. My fault' and pay up without repercussions)
If a company credit card is kept on file and the guest doesn't pay for the minibar usage, the company's credit card is charged. The guest might think the hotel never goes after him but in reality the company is footing the bills. The guest is exploiting his own company.
If the company's credit card is stipulated only for the room charges and nothing else, the hotels will ask the guest to provide a credit card for incidentals. This is same as prepaying hotel nights with Priceline, where a separate credit card is needed for incidentals at check-in time.
That said: What happens if you _have_ a credit card that backs the room, but not the rest of the expenses? I usually travel with a CC (from my employer) backing the room. I never pay my room myself. That said, the hotel isn't allowed to charge minibar/massage/champagne at 3am by room service on the company card - and has no reliable information about me [1].
1: Yes, obviously it's rather dumb to run off with a TV if my company reserved the room or something. But again, as stated elsewhere in this thread: I've seen a number of people getting away with minibar-theft, very easily.
This is the part that nobody understands. This isn't how things would work in the US (and many other countries). And how is this enforced?
First of all: Thanks a lot for taking me somewhat serious. :)
This is enforced by the letter of my company that states "Our Employee is staying in your hotel. We will cover his room, breakfast, wifi, parking. Please charge the following CC". Everything else is my business. If I eat at the hotel's restaurant I can charge that to my room. When I check out, I have to pay up for the things that aren't cleared for the CC - i.e. still open.
Even if I steal from the hotel and run off with the couch in this room: The company specifically offered their CC for a number of services, paying for me stealing furniture isn't part of that agreement. If I break something they cannot charge the company CC (but at a certain amount will certainly ask my company, which is on file and well-known, to relay a bill to me).
Just having a CC number is not enough to charge it with random things.
The hotels would not be interested in enforcing company policy so if you brought them a letter they would probably laugh at you. And your company enforces their "no porn/minibar/massage" policy by auditing the bill--if it's more than they expected, you could be asked for the itemized receipt.
Also, the system seems pretty hackable--forging a letter from a company that says "we will cover everything" seems easy. Of course the company could always audit the bills but once they're doing that why even bother with the letter?
> Just having a CC number is not enough to charge it with random things.
It pretty much is in this country.
Thanks a lot for the clarification. As I said: I didn't have a CC for most of my life and had to trouble to check into a hotel. Sometimes a cash deposit was indeed required, but that was unusual (and mostly in seedy/grimey/ugly kind of places).
I think a big misunderstanding is the 'company CC' here. There's just one. For the company. Not one for me, for the company. My company has a _single_ CC covering travel expenses (and god knows what). So someone (travel agency, customer, me, who ever) is booking a hotel. My company sends a polite letter to the hotel, stating that it would cover my stay (see above, limitations etc) and offers the CC details or - still quite often the case - asks even to receive the bill by mail.
The hotel has no CC that I gave it, ever. Not mine, not a CC that the company gave me (I .. don't have something like that, doubt that it exists in this company outside of maybe some people in the higher sales ranks and .. well .. maybe the US? No clue). The name on the CC used for these things is actually my CEO, last time I checked.
Hackable: Well, the whole thread is about abuse, but I think you're caught up in that misunderstanding: I'm not providing a CC and forge a letter that says 'Yeah, but please just charge the room'. I'd have to forge a letter that says 'Please charge the room to the following CC'..
That said.. Again: Often enough we ask for a bill. In that case we tell the hotel: "Please send the bill for the stay (room/breakfast...) to company name, street, city". Is that hackable? Probably. It's a protocol that wasn't designed to protect against abuse. Just as I am able to send you emails from president@whitehouse.gov as long as I'm able to find an open smtp relay. That doesn't mean that everyone or even a significant number of people does it..
Often what happens here with corporate credit cards is that you have different cards for different people, even if they are coming out of the same account, and you can see all the transactions that each person made. So the company would ask questions when they see the extra charge.
I go down to the reception, they look at the bill, ask me if I consumed something from the minibar ("Never!") and wave goodbye.
They are not authorized to charge the company card for drinks or whatnot. They _could_ try to localize me based on the information I provided or .. I don't know - sue me across countries or something.
Disclaimer: I buy cheap drinks (including non-alcoholic beverages) in shops outside of the hotels I stay in. I hate the concept of minibars except as a fridge for MY stuff (those vending machine style of minibars really annoy the hell out of me). But I still insist that here/around me this exploit would work just as fine as the (to get back to the subject of the thread) exploit of the cafe that started this thread. It's not difficult. There are little to no repercussions. You will most likely get away with it. And most people still won't do it.
I'm 34 and didn't even HAVE a credit card ~3 years ago. I still rarely use it. The world is so diverse and different...
A hotel that asks for my credit card in Europe has to live with the chance that I don't have one, period. Which isn't the case anymore (see above), but I _still_ don't leave a credit card, ever.
On top of that: For the minibar issue that _still_ makes no difference at all. Most of the exploits I've seen were connected to company trips. The room was payed by the company, backed by a credit card. The minibar .. wasn't.
I'm currently in a decent hotel in Bern (my favorite, tried probably "all there are" in this city over some years). They don't have my credit card.
So..
- Bern isn't part of the modern first world
- Novotel hotels don't know their business
- You win
If novotel isn't charging the company credit card for all incidentals after-the-fact, then yes, I think they're doing business foolishly in that regard. And it's hardly news that being dishonest can get you free things - so can shoplifting from the grocery, why not simplify your life and just do that if you want free cashews so badly?
=> egocentric world view. Ignoring the somewhat interesting discussion about what you consider the 'modern first world' this statement makes you a jerk. You replied to a post that said that I'm currently _in_ a hotel in Bern, CH. 'modern first world'?
- snarky responses: Except for the one to your post I don't think I wrote one today. I consider that one deserved.
- complicity: Granted. Good point. You are right and I certainly could (should?) have acted a number of times. Yes, that makes me a jerk as well, I guess.
- The hotel business: I .. don't believe you're qualified to judge the business, quite frankly. But neither am I.
What really makes me turn green and quite angry: You totally missed the whole point of this thread. You're so far off, it is not even funny. The article that this comment thread is connected to is about a very interesting and charming idea, about a cafe that charges you for time and nothing else. Someone posted a rather bland 'So what if I abuse that' comment and I said 'Well - that is totally not clever and you can already do that like .. everywhere.' and provided a couple of examples. Staying in a hotel tonight, for the rest of the week, I chose the examples that were closest to me at that time. Yes, the thread then began to focus a little bit too much on my examples, but your statement here ("And it's hardly news that being dishonest can get you free things - so can shoplifting from the grocery, why not simplify your life and just do that if you want free cashews so badly?") shows that you were totally unable to read before you commented. Your statement is - frankly - stupid.
Cafe in London charges for time. I like that. Someone says 'I can break it!'. I say 'Amazing, it is hardly news that being dishonest...' - oh wait, I didn't. I stated the very same thing, but didn't use your words and it wasn't a grocery it was a hotel.. But cool, you just stated what I posted directly below the top-level post while indirectly accusing me to take advantage of dishonest behavior at the same time ('if you want free cashews so badly'). I'd really, really suggest to start at the top again and read more carefully the next time.
And I'm allergic to cashews, you insensitive clod. :)
Please do tell me where I can find (in the first world countries) a hotel that doesn't a) check your ID/personal information, and b) lets you pay by cash?
I don't know, is your argument against this cafe that some people are cunts? Well, they are.
1.80 per hour and includes everything (coffee?) sounds like a bargain in London standards. That won't buy you a cup of coffee in most other places as far as I remember, let alone fruit, vegetables, biscuits etc... Even cheaper than co-working spaces(?), especially for casual use.
I think one way of attacking this problem would be similar to taxi-cab pricing (X for the first mile and Y (where Y<<X) for every subseqeunt one. Essentially adding a flat fee of a few bucks just for walking in, then charging a small amount per minute to hang around.
But it's totally awesome to have the capability to check out who's there. I hope it goes a long way toward fostering a community there and helping people make useful contacts.
You can currently use the app on your desktop browser using the same url (https://app.workshopcafe.com) and get the same feature set as you get on your phone (Except for things that require a phone like calling or texting in orders). No need to switch from your laptop!
If you or anyone else reading this stops by you'll probably see me on the Community Page (under the name "Newton") as I'm in the café often. You can see where I'm sitting so you can come introduce yourself!
P.S. In Saint-Petersburg's Ziferblat, you can take coffee-to-go for free but donations are highly welcomed.
First, all back in Euro, the a 20%VAT gives us:
1.73 per hour
Considering this place is a cafe and runs only during day starting very early, it can run at 12 hrs day. Let's also take the normal accounting standard of 30days per month.
This gives us:
Monthly income: 1.73 x 12 x 30 x X
Where X is the avg hourly nr of people in the cafe'.
Say X is 15 --> Monthly revenue: Eur 9400
Considering 1 waiter at a cost of 4000, rent at a cost of 2000, utilities at a cost of 500, food/coffee at 1000, we have about EUR 2000 of profits for 1 cafe'. Excluding amortizations and other overhead I probably forgot to consider.
But I think 15 hourly is a bit optimistic, how big is this place?
You can drink tea and coffee with cookies or you can bring your own cake or you can order pizza/sushi delivery.
We've visited a Ziferblat/Ziferburg in SpB and it's amazing, they're sitting on the top floor of a historic building just opposite Gostinyy Dvor (and near the jealousy-inspiring VK office btw), they even have a piano there.
The person who runs into a place like this, grabs food and a latte, and runs out is not doin them economic harm.
Next Door in Chicago offers a good work environment (tables, some cubicles and private rooms with excellent internet), and is completely free. Using it for work is encouraged. A cafe inside does very good business from the people who are otherwise there to work (no outside food or drink is allowed) . It's sponsored (by State Farm), so it's possible the cafe might not be able to support the space on it's own, but the fact that an environment where work is explicitly free brings substantial revenue for the cafe suggests that model might be viable.
Paying per minute reminds me of paying per minute for virtual servers.
[+] This can be useful if it is 2 AM and you're in a city you don't live in with a face that says "I am at the margins of Japanese society; nobody will fault your hotel if you refuse my business on the excuse that you are fully booked... on a Thursday... but could be unbooked if I were willing to have someone from my office call to vouch for me."
Owners actively encourage socialising, there are events almost every day and it hosts several clubs. In fact I just returned a few hours from Mafia club meeting there.
Also, they encourage to host your own events there, for free. I. e. they get paid from visitors and you get venue. You can also take higher price for your event if needed.
They have plugs all over the place and the wifi is much better than in any other cafe, which makes it a really nice place for working.
Seems incredible!
The interesting thing is the pricing model - at the airline club, you prepay for it by either paying per session (very expensive), having a club membership through some means, or else it's baked into the price of a first-class ticket.
In the per-minute case, I'm trying to think of how usage patterns would vary from those of an airline club. It would be interesting to compare to other models as well, such as a co-working space that offers free coffee and treats.
So the clock is purely flavour. Other anticafes may just ask for your name and use it as index.
These places usually attract people who are cool. So I won't expect much cheating anyway.
I don't understand why pay-per-minute would lead to this. Doesn't that mean people are paying to wash other peoples' dishes?
In Starbucks in the USA, people take their empty mugs and dishes to the counter.
In Starbucks in the UK, people don't do that - they consider it the cafe's job to clear the tables.
From the owner side, it seems like the way to keep people from buying the cheapest thing and occupying a table.
From the consumption side, is seems like another way to squeeze more money out of people and give another reason to exclude people on basis of economics.
For London?