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Comment by Al-Khwarizmi | Hacker News Reader

A laptop targeted to developers should have a TrackPoint to move the cursor without taking the hands off the keyboard, a non-shortscreen monitor to see more lines of code, a matte screen to read the code better, and a numpad to, well, type numbers. OK, I guess I'm asking too much for today's standards, even if all these things were common ten years ago (sigh...), but when I saw "developer edition" I thought I would see at least two of these four features, and I see none.

This is just a standard high-end laptop. Disappointing.

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Serious question: aside from data-entry people and accountants, who uses numeric keypads anymore?

As a developer, I don't exactly type a lot of numbers. And they're too far away from the home position of the hands to make the numpad efficient to use for numbers in mixed alphanumeric text.

It really seems like they are rightly turning into a very niche input product, like Wacom tablets, instead of a general-purpose one.

True programmers do everything with alt-codes.

Get off my lawn. Alt codes didn't exist in the days when true programmers roamed the earth.

I must say I'm probably quite biased regarding the numpad, because much of my programming is about experiments that give numeric results, which then have to be processed and/or reported... so typing lots of numbers always ends up being a part of the equation in my particular case, but not on the code itself.

Numpads are nice for roguelikes as well :)

This is why I always need a numpad as well!

Yup, I'd rather go without the num pad and avoid the minor space and weight increment. If needed, I can always attach a usb number pad.

I dislike the trend of putting number pads on laptop keyboards. It moves the entire keyboard to the side.

For me it's a complete and utter deal-killer. Any laptop with a number-pad, regardless of any specs and price otherwise, is a laptop I will not buy.

Numpad = No deal.

I still curse the trend of putting them on laptops. May it soon pass.

Scientist. I went out and bought a numpad to attach to my laptop I missed it so much.

Agreed about the screen - it's annoying. But pretty much everything has those stupid HD style screens these days.

I thought the glossy screen would bother me. It doesn't.

Numpad? Never used one.

Trackpoint? Not my style - I mostly navigate with the keyboard and the trackpad just launches the pointer into the window I need active, and then focus follows it!

I've never really understood the attraction of focus follow mouse, and it's especially confusing to me when the preference comes from someone who professes to mostly navigate using the keyboard.

If you're using the mouse, not having focus follows mouse means you have to click twice to activate something in a window without focus, which from my point of view as someone who uses focus-follows-mouse, is pointless and irksome.

When I'm not using the mouse, I change the focus with the keyboard (In my setup, focus follows mouse only when the mouse moves).

That depends entirely on your window manager. I generally run a customized Fvwm2 setup, so that's all easy to tweak.

In my setup, focus follows mouse only when the mouse moves

That makes much more sense to me.

Over the years, my work style on Unix style systems had come to depend on focus following the mouse, but also, importantly, the focused window NOT coming to the front. Combined with the ability to "push" a window to the bottom of the stack when I'm done with it allows me to have lots of shell windows I can work with simultaneously. I can move the mouse into a partially hidden window, run a command, and then go back to my main window without a lot of fuss. I am constantly frustrated by the inability to push down windows in Windows and OS X, or to interact with a background window. (Yes, some apps on the Mac allow limited interaction without bring the window to the front, but it's not enough for me.) I feel crippled by the weak window controls on Macs and Windows PCs systems. Getting rid of the top window by iconifying it, or by dragging the window I want to the top is NOT the same. Expose on Mac was nice, until they changed it. I suppose I should figure it out again.

I'm sure that if I had learned windowing system on a Mac or Windows PC, I'd find that natural and I'd have developed different work styles. But I've got thirty years of experience with highly flexible window managers and miss these features on less capable systems.

When I specced out my Dell laptop a couple of years ago, I specifically went for a smaller model so I could get a keyboard without a numeric keypad. When on my lap, why would I want the keyboard shifted to the left?

If it's on a desk and not your lap, buy a keyboard.

I quite disagree. A touchpad doesn't require appreciably more movement off the keyboard than a trackpoint (I used a trackpoint Dell machine for years). Matte screens are bad for reading code, because they create a layer of gritiness that reduces the sharpness of text. Glossy screens with good room lighting are far superior. Finally, a wide-screen 13" display is just about the right size to fit two 80-character Emacs windows side-by-side.

The difference between 16:10 and 16:9 (HDTV proportions) screens is appreciable though, the former is better for dev work.

Although I cannot imagine doing any work on a laptop without external monitor and ergo KB/mouse, so I'm too fussy I guess.

The problem with numpads on laptops is that it shifts the keyboard to the left, resulting in a non-ergonomic typing position. That's much worse than not being able to type in numbers marginally faster. Also using numpads takes your fingers far from the home row, which is in contrast to your trackpoint argument.

This is precisely why I haven't purchased several otherwise very nice looking Linux laptops.

Which Laptops? I always like seeing who's making Linux laptops.

Number pads are such a colossal waste of real estate. Let alone on a 13 inch laptop, the keys would have to be so small.

With regards to wanting a 4:3 display over a 16:9/10; with 1920x1080 resolution do you really need the 4:3? Are you really going to make your terminal/editing window full screen height? I use my rMBP in 1920x1200 and my terminals rarely need to go full screen height in order to see all the lines of code I need to see.

I always make my terminals and windows full screen height in my 1600x1200 monitor and in my old 1920x1200 laptop. And on the desktop, I also have a vertical (1200x1600) monitor, typically used for documentation. Vertical space has always been the most important for reading text, that's why books typically come in portrait form...

Books can't scroll. Terminal windows can.

The question is how much text needs to be on your screen at once. Sometimes you need a lot but I find most of the time I don't need 1200 pixels of height worth of text on my screen at once.

So, if you have the same number of rows (say, 1200), you'd rather have 1600x1200 (4:3) than 1920x1200 (16:10) screen?

I hate 16:9 screens, just because manufacturers robbed me of 120 pixels on the screen (1920x1200 vs 1920x1080). 4:3 fascination was always strange to me - I never saw 4:3 laptop with more than 1200 pixel rows, and more pixels before my eyes is always better in my book.

I don't think a numpad is necessary, developers normally don't type that many numbers (except maybe 0 and 1).

I agree that a numpad isn't really necessary. The keys I miss on a laptop keyboard are:

- Home, end, pgup, pgdown

- Delete

- Function keys that are just F-keys, not volume/brightness controls that act as F-keys when you press a 'function' modifier key.

My work provided Lenovo w530 has all these. The F-keys do have volume and brightness controls on them, but you have to hit the Fn key to do that, pressing just F4 gives you 'F4'.

It's not as stylish as a MacBook Pro though.

If you do spreadsheet work based on numbers, a number pad comes in handy. Some developers have to do estimates or accounting where this applies.

I only have a full-sized keyboard to get the arrow keys. Being able to smack "Enter" in the corner is a nice bonus.

Someone who gets it! I'm doomed to stay with a 2010 vintage Lenovo T-series by the looks.

...using tools from the late 70s/early 80s no doubt (vim, emacs, etc.)

Unix, DOS/Windows, etc.

Just because it was originally conceived and created then, doesn't mean there hasn't been a fair amount of evolution in those products since that time.

Yes indeed. Vim+FreeBSD+C

Nothing has shown itself as significantly better yet.

There isn't anything better than Vim or Emacs. Sorry.

For text editing, sure.

For an IDE for, say, C/C++, Visual Studio beats it soundly. For Java, Eclipse.

All that said, these tools are quite useful despite being old--I don't mean anything pointing out their age other than that a somewhat old laptop is probably still quite sufficient.

Eclipse? Surely you mean IntelliJ IDEA.

The problem with the new T440p, and the entire Lenovo line in general, is the awful keyboard and trackpad.

They moved to a chiclet style keyboard in the previous generation, removed the top row of keys, and have now inverted the function keys so they perform media functions first. In order to get an F4 you have to press Fn+F4. Ridiculous!

Also they have removed the physical buttons surrounding the trackpad. Previously, one of the nice things about the trackpoint was the ability to have your finger moving the trackpoint while your thumb took a rest on the middle button. Being able to feel the physical buttons you always knew exactly which button you were going to click. Now with the Apple style trackpad, you get no textual feedback at all.

I'm using a T440s, and I haven't had any problems with the keyboard, other than hitting PrtSc. Between Right Alt and Right Ctrl is not the proper place for that key.

Fn+Escape turns on Function Lock, and it stays on permanently through reboots.

I agree with you that the clickpad buttons are inferior. It's much harder to drag and drop, for example.

Also they have removed the physical buttons surrounding the trackpad.

The W530 still has the proper trackpoint buttons. But it's a 1080p screen with a numpad that displaces the main keyboard.

Lenovo sells USB trackpoint keboards (with and without a trackpad). I already had one for my HP desktop box and ordered another on the assumption that sooner or later Lenovo will turn to the Thinkpad line to shit and I'll want that keyboard for whatever laptop I get next.

You're confusing w530 and w540. w530 has a centered keyboard and no numpad, and physical trackpoint buttons. It's the new w540 that drops the buttons and shifts the keyboard.

That said, I suppose I'm the audience that Lenovo's changes are targeted to. As a current owner of an early 2011 macbook pro, I just ordered a T440p yesterday, but for a long time I was deciding between it and T540p. I prefered T540p to the very similarly priced and equipped w530 (for my price range) because of the new trackpad.

I eventually settled on the T440p because of its greater portability and centered keyboard.

There's just more people who care about a good trackpad than a good trackpoint. I've used lenovo trackpoints and just can't get used to them, so I suppose it must be similarly difficult for trackpoint users to learn to use trackpads effectively, but I don't think either is inherently better.

Indeed you are right. That's even more depressing. :)

I get that maybe more people are interested in the trackpad but I don't see why Lenovo improves the pad at the expense of the trackpoint. I disable the trackpad on my laptops so there's a net loss for me when they degrade the trackpoint buttons.

If they insist on degrading what distinguishes a Thinkpad then they'll be yet another generic laptop provider.

Logged in to upvote you. I would also add that a proper keyboard which doesn't resemble typing on mashed potatoes would also be my requirement. Even Thinkpads have degraded to a calculator-quality cheap uniform keyboard without oversized keys copied from Sony/Apple... Ugh...

"This is just a standard high-end laptop. Disappointing."

Well, a high end laptop with a low resolution screen...

It's a strange world where we're saying 1080p is "low res".

It is pretty garbage by today's standards, and is inferior to CRT screens I had ten years ago.

If this is for developers, pixels matter.

For people used to WUXGA it's (somewhat) low res.

I thought the newer W-series Thinkpads would have better res then "HD" (AKA "short screen") but last I checked they're still stuck selling "business" machines with entertainment-consumption screens. Plus a numpad that shifts the main keyboard over.

On the bright side they still have dedicated trackpoint buttons instead of the clacky thing built in to the trackpad that some of the other other recent models have.

The Dell that I got several years (3-4) ago that this one replaced was WUXGA. This one (an XPS13) is light and has more battery life, and is faster and all, but I do miss that screen a lot. More pixels == better, with a bias for vertical pixels.

16:9 is a no-deal for me. Horrible aspect ratio for actual work. I require at least 16:10 or preferably 4:3 (I have two monitors in portrait together at my office that effectively give 5:4)

The operative word is "Linux", not "Developer".

This is totally shitty naming by Dell. Name it Dell Sputnik and you are fine.

Ah, the eternal "war" between product development and marketing. I like the Sputnik name better as well, even when they called us cosmonauts :D

But the XPS 13 is a standard Dell laptop. Sputnik is just the project to get Ubuntu running excellently on them, coupled with some developer tools.

I absolutely detest TrackPoint-type sticks. I find them largely unusable for pointing, and every one I've ever had has got in the way of actually typing. We have them at work and thankfully they are removable. A non-removable one would be a deal-breaker for any laptop for me.

I absolutely love TrackPoint-type sticks. I find them the best thing for pointing, and each one I have ever had has never got in the way of actually typing. I wish we had them at work.

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