I've been programming since I was 10, but I don't feel like a "hacker"

I then read this link given in the article and I think I understand better http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/gendergap/www/geekmyth....

My takeaway is this: a lot of us feel impostor syndrome, feel that we'll never be a true hacker. The difference is it appears easier for men, for whatever reason, to ignore or move beyond those feelings. And you know maybe that's a problem we should take seriously.

>Despite these feelings of difference, we find that male students report less distress, are less affected by the perceived difference between themselves and their peers, and leave the major in smaller proportion; and despite resistance to total absorption in computing, they do not feel like frauds. The 36% of male CS majors who say they feel different from their CS peers, regardless of experience level or obsession level, do not question their ability to become computer scientists if they choose to do so.

I know the feeling, and (though I'm male) I recognize many of the waypoints described. And I, too, don't feel like a real hacker. But of course, the word means wildly different things to different people. Even though I love programming very much and I'm doing it all the time, and especially doing it for fun, it was only after joining HN that it dawned on me I could be considered a hacker in some circles.

Still, my primary definition of being a hacker is someone who is insanely active in hacker and cracker culture, someone very interested in systems security, someone who knows to debug a defunct DSL modem given only an oscilloscope and a bit of tinfoil. That's not me.

If I were to apply for a VC program that looks for hackers, I'd probably feel like a bad fit or a complete fraud. Nevertheless, I probably am a hacker. Labels are always an imperfect solution.

One other thing about getting people to program: Male or female, I wouldn't know where to start either. In school I was literally the only kid into actual programming, out of about 500 students. It was only much later in life that I made my first actual programmer friend, and I also recruited an unhappy English major into programming, but most people just aren't interested. And of those who can, and by necessity must, program most would never do it in their spare time for fun.

One example of this is what I will generically call the "Google Interview". I know brilliant engineers how have done massive non-trivial projects that have generated millions of dollars in revenue who could not pass such an interview.

The other aspect is the constant exposure to the language-of-the-day and framework-of-the-day club. I can see a young aspiring developer becoming utterly disappointed when realizing it is nearly impossible to keep up with it all. Where do you start? How do you learn this stuff? Someone could very easily think they are not up to par if they can't walk in these mythical shoes.

The truth is very different from that. There's a huge world out there for software engineers. There are real problems to be solved. And, no, not everything in software engineering lives and dies on a web browser or a smart phone.

Is the OP saying that she needed to feel like a hacker to feel legitimate? That would be sad.

What the hell is a hacker anyway? Definitions abound. In many ways it is more about how someone might approach hardware and software problems than anything else. You don't have to be YC material to be a legitimate software engineer. One could very easily argue there are tons of software engineers out there doing far more important work than almost any YC developer has done to date. Most of them are invisible. Think about the people writing code for MRI machines, aircraft avionics or even your car's ABS system.

If you are young and love software engineering please don't think that building websites is the only way you are going to become somebody in this business. Explore what's out there and dare to learn about other interesting problems you might be able to solve.

Sure, today hacking is "cool" .. because money, fame and power are cool and many hackers have achieved that. But until very very recently (last couple years), the only reasons a kid would start hacking were curiosity and having little else to do because they couldn't (or didn't want to) fit in.

With that in mind, this article disturbs me in a way I can't easily explain. Particularly when she describes feeling like an imposter "in the face of the desirable hacker stereotype" and even claims the nerdy clothes that hackers wear are in and of themselves exclusionary simply because one might choose to be more fashionable.

This is no different from her stereotypical "hacker" complaining about having to wear different attire to fit in at a school dance (or should he/she later choose to go into banking, law or any profession other than programming at a startup).

I went to a top high school, where academic excellence (grades, SATs, AP tests, what college you got into, etc) was definitely cool and admired. Even then, if you saw a kid hacking in the hallway (or painting or otherwise working on things completely of their own choosing) you knew that he/she was likely at the bottom of the social totem pole.

These very people are who pg was speaking to in many of his early essays like http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html

The fact of the matter is that a disproportionate number of the best hackers come from that population. Those who were the "cool kids" in high school may want in now, but they'll have to earn their place at the table. If that means working ungodly hours, having to change the way they speak or dress to "fit in" .. when in Rome ..

(please do not misinterpret anything I wrote as condoning sexism, which is despicable in any setting)

I was vaguely aware of programming as a child, but had no education (unless you count mailmerge and a broken floor-turtle) and certainly no encouragement at school (in the UK if my spelling hasn't given it away). I basically forgot all about it until the middle of my degree (physics) when C was mandatory. It took until two years after a PhD to work out that a career in programming was what I really wanted.

Do I regret the way I got here? Nope. I learnt a lot of cool stuff along the way. But had it not been for that C course I may never have worked out what I wanted. I got lucky, and luck should not be a factor.

There's a crucial distinction between my experience and hers, though. I had the support of a core group of computer nerds, egging each other on and making simple games and the like. This group was almost entirely male, and were mostly interested in other stereotypical geeky hobbies like video games, anime, and tabletop role-playing games. We weren't consciously exclusionary, but anyone who didn't match the profile was probably going to feel very out of place.

I remember in my CS course, there were two girls in the class, and they were most definitely not part of the clique, even though they were brilliant by most objective definitions. One of them was definitely in the "gifted" category, and while the rest of the class was concerned with making video games, she was writing an equation plotter. We didn't talk to her all that much.

My point with all this rambling is that there's a lot of bundling of interests that goes on, all of them male-dominated, and if you aren't into those things, you don't get the same peer education as somebody who is. I think this explains a lot of the gender disparity we see in CS education today, and I don't know what to do about it. Education should not be tied to social cliques, but in reality, it often is.

Yet, I am arguably successful. I got a job offer from Amazon at the start of my senior year and took it, and of course, I eventually want to start my own company that's why I'm on this site. I understand the stigma because I personally have never told anyone I only started programming in college. I've never been asked either. I love playing around with new languages and learning all I can about software, but I don't feel I'm that far behind people who started programming early if even behind at all.

We need to stop acting like people who have been programming since kids have a huge advantage. It is much more about what you constantly put in, and there are numerous other ways to be a hacker then just programming. Most people who didn't program might already have the "hacker" in them and just need to attach the programming element of it.

Anyway, Paul was really talking about the fact that he can't make someone into a hacker in three months. Never did he say that people can't become a hacker at the advanced age of 22.

I miss those days, being a youngster and programming: doing without totally understanding but still learning. I still do stuff on my own, though, but no one will look at it or care.

But now all I do is fix bugs. I got one job after school, where I created something new. Looking back on it now, it was garbage but it was my garbage. That was the last time, though. Now I do 'sustaining' work. I don't mind but it feels like the industry as a whole has turned their back on me. I'm considering doing a startup sooner or later.

I think the issue is that the word hacker has too many meanings, and some of them contradictory. A hacker can be a prankster, a skilled programmer, a creative programmer, a skilled/creative programmer with some vague ideology that supports freedom of information, a computer security breacher, a person who tinkers with electronics, a person who subverts any type of system or authority (reality hacker/culture jammer), any sort of whimsical and creative fellow who applies unorthodox solutions to his everyday life, etc.

In addition, a hack can mean: an unskilled or untalented person, a charlatan, an inelegant but efficient solution to a problem (a kludge), an inelegant and inefficient solution to a problem (cruft), an elegant but unconventional solution to a problem, a skilled application of marketing (growth hack), a culture jam (reality hack), hacking off a limb, a prank, a computer security exploit or breach, a program to cheat at video games and so forth.

As far as I know, the "hacker" stereotype is that of the skilled but evil and socially isolated computer criminal.

To me, the label 'hacker' isn't claimed, it's earned. I call myself a hacker, though I didn't until someone else did. I've never broken into secure systems armed only with a 28.8 bps modem and active matrix screen, though -- I use it entirely in the 'problem-solver' sense of the word, and proudly.

Having programmed since childhood doesn't make me a hacker. I owe far more to years of Latin study, an unhealthy interest in logic problems and strategy games, and being trained via school that there is always a solution to every problem if you apply yourself hard enough.

But on the other hand, if I were just learning to program now, how much of the 'hacker' mindset would come along with it? Very little, in and of itself; I tutor beginning students and I'm always trying to teach them how to solve problems and look for answers, how to be creative and elegant, and how to reuse other people's work -- it wasn't until I started mentoring that I realised how little of this some people do naturally, and I still don't know the reasons why that is.

On a side note, and having just re-read Little Women, I have a thought about hacking and poverty. When you are poor, you have to be creative. How much of that mindset overlaps with what makes a good hacker? How many hackers grew up in disadvantaged circumstances and learned to make the most of the resources they had? How many hackers hung out in libraries, absorbing information like sponges, because it was free and warm and both their parents were at work?

1. The author tries to blame society ( everybody except herself ) for not noticing the field of computer science. This is a very strange statement. Anyone using a computer must realise it didn't appear on the earth from god almighty him self. "stumbled upon opportunities early on" here again the author is trying to blame the society for the personal problem of a lack of willpower and curiosity for finding out how computers works, instead she comfortably chooses to say that the society did not do its part.

2. "Still, I imagine that this is unfortunately more common among women due to the ongoing sexism surrounding the field and the effects that this has on young, impressionable women.". Again with the personal lack of willpower. Being impressionable is a personal problem and the solution is not stopping to peruse an interest. Frankly I don't have any sympathy for anyone who refuses to do their own analysis of a subject and instead trust and conforms to other peoples view on the matter, which is what being "impressionable" is.

3. " In addition to being unable to self-identify with the "hacker" stereotype,". This is at the heart of the authors argument, "unable to self-identify". How on earth can this ever be a problem? What does it even mean? She wants to erase her personality and become a profession completely? If you like something I assume you are interested in the technique, art or science of the sport or hobby. Not because you want to "feel" like a practitioner of that sport/hobby? I really can't understand an argument that is based on how much you feel like a practitioner. If you are doing something you are doing it because you enjoy it or find it fascinating.

Every child will during upbringing become exposed to computers and if they are interested they will ask as how they work or how the programs are made. Anything after that is a pure personal problem, a willpower issue. Blaming others for ones own failings is not a valid argument and I wont respect it.

I dont remember that being the stereotype for hackers. I would be interested to hear from other people about what they think? But to me it has been someone who is intensely interested in computers and is very good at it. What they wear (wow really shallow much) hasnt really ever factored into it.

So using that definition, being a hacker is a type of seriously negative affliction. No one chooses the hacker lifestyle. The only good aspect occurs if you "recover" and find you can make a living programming for others. Pre-recovery, hackers often deliberately work in low level non-technical professions.

There is a sort of low level legend that straight women are immune to this sort of condition. Interesting if true. Such a revelation could result in some much needed reverse discrimination. There is nothing worse than accidentally hiring someone with a hidden overriding agenda for a programming position.

I was about 9/10, not sure exactly, I came across some article that taught you how to create a virus using the windows notepad (lame, I know), turns out the "virus" was just a fork bomb written in ms-batch.

I quickly got into the hacker culture, I went into some underground forum where there was a big "ms-batch scene", I have no idea why, but this guys were implementing games in ascii, trojans, interpreters... all in Batch.

And so I started learning, Batch is a horrible language, yet pretty simple to learn, in the meantime I heard about this mythical developers who wrote code in C or Python, languages I thought inaccessible and extremely complex.

I remember my first "big" project, I wrote some kind of graphical adventure where you were a "hacker" trying to "hack" into someone's PC by using commands such as "ping" and "telnet" (I had no idea about system administration or pentesting at the time).

Thinking about that horrid code, take in mind this was Batch, so no private variables, no functions, no structs... just an endless pile of GOTOs.

This is even more funny considering that this was 5 or 6 years ago, in a time where Python, Ruby and Javascript were a thing, I could have gone the easy way, but I took the side-path... and I'm glad.

I am now 16, I still have a lot to learn yet I've also learnt a lot. I do consider myself a hacker, just because I write code for fun and like reinventing the wheel when possible. But the definition of "hacker" is very wide, for me, a "hacker" is everyone who enjoys writing code, maybe they work 8-17 writing Java in the Enterprise, but, if you enjoy what you do, if you come back home and keep writing code, if you want to improve: then you are a hacker.

The stereotype of prodigies in sports is also hurting everyone like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, why should other sports people be disadvantaged by not starting at an early age. Really?

"Hacker" doesn't equate to the best software engineer, the best founder, or much of anything other than having benefited from a longer period of time to gain experience—extra time that may or may not have been used effectively to gain additional knowledge

This hasnt been my experience, seems like a lot of what ifs.

Just my two cents.

I've been writing software since I am seven years old. When I was younger, I actually did hack into my schools security system. Still, I cannot identify with the term "hacker". I'd say "builder" is a more apt description of what I do in my life.

1) Regarding physical traits leading to culture, the same development can be seen to have given rise to Deaf culture, and also in the very concepts of “men” and “women”, which are more cultural in nature than most people think.

There's a substantial slice of "hackers" who really enjoy saying Crazy Shit But No Wait It's Totally True And Makes Sense If You're Smart Enough To Process This Obscure Worldview That Makes It Make Sense. I know, I am one of those people.

Woz gleefully paying for things with sheets of $2 bills is a perfect example: http://hackaday.com/2012/08/03/woz-prints-and-spend-his-own-...

And really, it can be super fun! Most of us get a little rush from seeing something new in the world, and it can be a fun way to give people that rush.

It also really pisses some people off, and it can be really counterproductive. The trouble is that these hackers live in a world where there's never a bad time for a fun intellectual diversion. Fun intellectual diversions are the reason for being alive, of COURSE it's a good time. But other people live in other worlds, where getting to the school by 4:30 to pick up their child is actually higher on the priority list.

And so, to the word "Hacker".

I suspect there are a handful of people here who were hackers before the word "hacker" came to mean "cracker". But I suspect for most of us, myself included, "hacker" meant Kevin Mitnick first. Only later, when reading Steven Levy's "Hackers" did I learn about the MIT model railroad club, the "true" purpose of phone phreaking (it's fun, not profit!) did I start to understand the definition of "hacker" that Paul Graham espouses today.

The thing is, Steven Levy explained that everyone thinks hackers are undersexed males who break into computers, and we still adopted this label for ourselves. For the lulz. Because we get off on that moment of misunderstanding followed by the superiority of knowing that we have a different definition for the word than everyone else.

And if I'm being honest, this happened on purpose. We wanted it to be a somewhat exclusive clubhouse where you have to know the secret definition of "hacker" and it helps to know what a y combinator is. We wanted to keep out all the MBA riff-raff, remember?

I'm not saying it's wrong, or a bad strategy. But this is the chickens coming home to roost. When you make a secret handshake, you're going to alienate Susie Derkins.

I wanted to use internet so bad but I was not allowed a computer so I always hung out at the public library and I wished more than anything to use the internet as much as possible.

I thought by asking how does the computer know when the 30 minute is up? There must be a timer! Can I prevent the timer?

Sure enough, for half a second there's a dos terminal in windows 95 that is displayed when I restart the computer. It took a few tries but I managed to close it. 30 minutes passed and I was still on it. then an hour, another hour passes and I'm still not logged out!

I used the internet all the day from morning to dark. I let my sister use it too when I wanted to take a 'break'. I would see people check the wait list look over at me and leave very annoyed.

The next week, the librarian who remembered me told me they would need my library card as collateral, and that they will be keeping tabs on the time. the jig was up.

This was my hacker moment. not exactly sophisticated but I wanted something so bad and I got it.