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penny-arcade.com

75 pointsja2727 comments

I thought the dickwolves comic was funny. I can certainly see where some people wouldn't. In my opinion, making the comic wasn't the problem. The problem was when they took it upon themselves to tell rape victims that they weren't allowed to be offended by rape jokes.

The classy thing to do, after the original comic blew up, would be to ignore it. Let the internet storm blow over and get on with their lives and their comics. A brief, tasteful apology could've worked as well. The absolute wrong thing to do was to get all huffy and self-righteous. Don't start dishing it out if you can't take it too. If your material can't stand on its own, attacking your critics is never going to help.

I do hope that Mike's apology is sincere. I'd like to be able to respect PA again. I'm not sure distancing themselves from PAX and Child's Play was the very best decision--I'd have liked to see them clean up their acts enough that they were no longer a black mark. Still, it's a step in the right direction.

Yeah, I don't think I know anyone who actually cares about the initial comic-- the complaint on it was very localized and small. It's the fact that he kept whipping up more drama about it and continued espousing "poor me" viewpoint about rape survivors bullying him, on a near-yearly basis, that really drove people away.

To be honest, the number of feminists who would have actually bought any of the penny arcade stuff is tiny, while the number of people who would enjoy the controversy and buy a rude t-shirt because it annoys all these people is probably very large. They actually said they were sorry they took down the merchandise, probably because it made a huge amount of money.

So I think they didn't really drive many people away and likely got more publicity, advert impressions and merchandise revenue by stirring the controversy. So maybe they handled it just right if their goal at the time was to make money and not make everyone happy? I'm guessing this 'apology' is because the idea of 'boycott pax' has come up in large gaming media now and they need to stop it quickly? Pretty sure we wouldn't be seeing this if there was no boycott movement.

I think you're underestimating who's a "feminist" and who's not. It's not just a small cluster of women who say "all men are bad"; it's (finally) gaining the same sort of widespread acceptance that gay rights are. And there are quite a few indie developers who were either rejecting invitations or being on the fence about attending PAX even before this most recent "we regret taking the shirts down" thing.

Also worth noting is this isn't the only situation where Krahulik has shown off his ability to place his foot firmly in his mouth-- there's also things like his peculiar stance on transgender people[1], which is why people have such a hard time taking him at face value when he apologizes.

[1]http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013/06/21/why-we-are-not-sh...

That's a ridiculously short simplification of his comments on transgender terminology and his ignorance thereof. If people are going to criticize Mike for not engaging long enough to dispel his ignorance, they could at least honestly engage with what he was actually saying in the first place.

This thread is going stupid places quickly. I might just flag it and get it over faster.

Please don't compare gay rights to feminism. It's insulting to GLBT people.

It's hilarious that you bring up trans issues, given how poorly feminists have treated that particular minority over the years. The existence of trans people directly contradicts mainstream feminist ideology, therefore they are deemed "problematic." And everyone in the tech community knows by now what feminists do to people they consider problematic...

> Please don't compare gay rights to feminism. It's insulting to GLBT people.

Bullshit, speaking as a queer man.

Some feminists, a minority, have treated trans people very poorly. Quite a few gay and lesbian activists have done the same. Gay/lesbian activists have denied the existence of bisexuals, transwomen have feuded with transmen, African-American activists have treated feminists and GLBT activists poorly and vice versa... Look, some people in every group are closed-minded assholes. That doesn't give us an excuse to dismiss an entire group.

Equal rights and equal treatment for women, black folks, Hispanics, gay men, lesbians, transfolks, and every other minority are all in the same boat together. If someone thinks we're not, fuck 'em--and that goes for you just as much as it goes for bigoted feminists.

Feminism is fighting a war that was won long ago. Women already have equal rights in modern countries. GLBT people are only just now starting to see things progress. That's why it's not fair to GLBT people when feminists appropriate our struggles--they're trying to retain an appearance of legitimacy despite the fact that their movement is no longer relevant in virtually every first world country (and let's face it, first world feminists are too focused on criticizing any and every fictional female character to care about the problems of third world women--except for when they need to justify the continuing existence of feminism, after which they promptly go back to their first world "problems" again).

It sounded pretty sincere to me. He's not the type to say things he doesn't mean, nor the type to apologize just because of public pressure.

He was being a bully, and I think better of him now that he recognized it.

I'm sure Robert Khoo has been begging him to do something like this, but that doesn't make it any less sincere.

Can we place a moratorium on using the word feminist?

Note that I am only tangentially talking about your comment. I started reading your comment and as soon as the word feminist appeared, my instant reaction was "oh, one of those guys". (Of course, after reading the entire comment, my reaction turned out to be wrong.)

So my gut feeling now seems to have an instantaneous "if somebody on HN uses the word feminist, he belongs into category X".

IMO, that is because the "average HN user" uses the word feminist in about as nuanced a manner as the "average American" uses the word socialist. These are words that have actual, definable meanings but are used as arbitrarily redefinable derogatory strawman terms by so many people, that they become emotionally loaded.

This is not helping the conversation.

Yes, this. I'm the original poster of this thread, I'm a man, and I consider myself a feminist. It doesn't just mean women who burn bras and join lesbian communes.

I'm honestly curious why someone downvoted this. All feminist means is "a person who advocates equal rights for women." I mean, it's in a bunch of dictionaries and everything.

"The problem was when they took it upon themselves to tell rape victims that they weren't allowed to be offended by rape jokes."

When was this?

Starting with the very next comic, which was dedicated to mocking anyone who didn't like the first comic, and continuing from there. Several people have posted links in this thread already; I'm sure you can find them as well as I can.

I'm familiar with the comic. I'm also familiar with that interpretation, which I don't agree with. I'm sure you're aware that most people saw the original comic as it was: a jab at a lazy MMO trope. The next comic jabbed at people who mistook it for a comic that made light of the horrible things it depicted, which it very plainly was not.

I had a longer comment here, but I don't think your mind will be changed. This is a conversation I've had with too many people saying the exact same things you're saying. I'm moving on with everyone else.

I don't know if this necessarily matters to the HN crowd, but in case it does, this[1] is why him coming out publicly with an apology for his behavior overall is a thing.

Personally, I'd say it's a good first step provided he can actually follow through with it, but I'm not holding my breath.

[1]http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-pe...

That entire article is a prime example of idiots blowing things out of proportion to generate internet drama.

The link you posted is clearly showing how the internet is centered around the extremely negative. So much coverage over a couple of comments and a misinterpreted comic, while ignoring the explanations and apologies of the afflicted side.

Of course nobody mentioned the very positive things they are doing.

That post is a chronicle of interpretations that are the exact opposite of charitable.

The whole debacle is stupid. Someone online said something wrong. Move on. Seriously.

This feels like the Hot Coffee thing again. The problem is not that he said something wrong, the problem was that he himself kept bringing it up.[1][2][3]

[1]http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/13/

[2]http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/10/06/our-store-is-back

[3]http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-hern/2013/09/penny-arcade-r...

Who thought it was going to be about screen resolutions before clicking?

HN is less and less about hacking and more about feelings, I am actively looking for a more technical news site, this site is turning into Jezebel.

Flag the submissions that don't belong here. Upvote the submissions that do belong here. Post great submissions.

HN has always had this kind of content. You can ignore most of the "feelings" by saying this is an example of how a company shouldn't apologise - and that's important for HN because startups sometimes make mistakes thst have to be apologised for.

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