Uber now has to wait 15 minutes before picking you up in France | Hacker News Reader

Uber now has to wait 15 minutes before picking you up in France

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61 pointsbjenik79 comments

Presumably, the taxi industry is "heavily regulated" for the benefit of the customer, then shouldn't customers flock to this excellent, regulated service on their own? Why are those artificial and arbitrary limits necessary?

In some Italian cities the situation is no different: taxi licenses are issued only on a fixed, limited number and are sometimes inherited from father to child, often sold for mind-boggling amounts (comparable to the price of a house). The service as a result is quite crap: long waits, high prices per km and all the most contrived surcharges you can think of (5 additional Euros for the airport and some tourist destinations, etc). Each time a deregulation is proposed (and it does happen) there are immense backlashes from a small category that would be not only stripped of a privilege, but actually, properly ruined: some cabbies have to take 10 yrs mortgages to buy a license. It's a legacy state of affairs that carries on only because it's difficult to remove, not because it's of actual advantage to anyone.

> high prices per km

In Italy, and in other European countries, the taxi prices are set by the city councils, not the taxi drivers.

And those councils are aggressively lobbied (and possibly bribed) by those taxi drivers.

The most depressing thing about public corruption is how cheap it is.

The same basic situation exists in New York City. They're called taxi medallions there, and the small supply and large demand causes them to cost a surprisingly large amount of money. The government even has a convenient graph of the average price over time:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/downloads/pdf/price_trends_chart...

That shows a cost of 359,000 in 2006. More recent data is even crazier:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/downloads/pdf/avg_med_price_2013...

According to that, they cost a million dollars apiece these days.

The last time I went to Brasserie Flo after a concert at New Morning I waited 90 minutes at a taxi stand for cabs behind a 50-foot line of other late-night revelers. Cabs came 10 minutes apart. I have never waited so long for a cab in a major city.

The industry may be heavily regulated, but it does not seem to be rigged in favor of the customer.

If I knew I would get a ride in 15 minutes, I would snap at this in every city I travel to.

Not necessarily, not if some companies are committing fraud, or creating a monopoly.

The entire point of rational regulation (not to be confused with insane regulation, which is sadly common) is to avoid market failures such as the tragedy of the commons. By their very nature, those market failures mean that a regulated industry cannot compete with an unregulated one, but people are still better off with the regulated one.

That's not to say that these regulations are beneficial or that regulations are needed at all here (I have no idea either way), merely that you can't judge the utility of regulations by letting them compete with deregulated industry and seeing which one wins.

Regulation is a public good, therefore it is itself a market failure. Voters don't do hours of research to determine what constitutes rational regulation.

So, if there's a new law that will cost 990 people $1 each and the other 10 people gain 99 each... it will pass, because for 99% of the people it's not even worth an hour of their time to rally against it. However, the 1% that benefit from it can afford to organize entire campaigns to convince the 99% that this new law is for their own good.

It certainly can be. Lots of laws are built to favor small groups who benefit less than the total cost imposed on the rest of the country.

My point is simply that regulation can be overall good and that you can't detect this by having them compete, because even good regulation can't compete.

> a regulated industry cannot compete with an unregulated one, but people are still better off with the regulated one.

Can you please give one example?

Leaded gasoline. Using it allows you to increase the compression of your engine, which improves fuel economy.

The total cost of lead in the environment by far outweighs the economic benefits, which is why it's banned, yet for each individual person it makes economic sense to use leaded gasoline if you can.

The libertarian argument here would be "burning leaded gas is a tort against everyone else breathing the air", right? You clearly have to special case it because the harm is so diffuse; you could presumably either have a government ban it, or have some objective standard where non-compliance is itself taken as a tort, and then something like class-action. There's the California option -- Prop 65 has this weird way for private people to find violations and be paid for them, although the enforcement action is taken by the state.

I can't see "someone with a $0.0001 harm files suit against the aggressor" x 7b being a scalable solution without some kind of optimization. Maybe you could imagine some kind of little automated lawyer-agent which sues behind on your behalf, with everything happening at a micro-transaction level, but that seems kind of silly.

Regulation must exist for valid reasons (clear evidence of environmental harm exists for lead emissions) and be applied equally. Neither of those is true here.

We aren't actually discussing taxi regulations in this subthread, just regulations in general, and why you can't judge their merit by letting them compete in a free market.

Nice one! This is a much better example than my more generalized one of car emissions in general.

> The total cost of lead in the environment by far outweighs the economic benefits

Evidence?

Literally 3 seconds on Google for "lead cost benefit analysis" yields this 1985 study by the EPA: http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/eerm.nsf/vwAN/EE-0034-1.pdf/$...

It's even worse than that, I think. I may have missed it since I just skimmed that document, but I don't think it covered violent crime.

It has been shown rather conclusively that overexposure to lead in childhood leads to an increase in violent crime in adulthood. Banning leaded gasoline was the single most significant cause of the large decrease in violent crime in the US in the latter part of the 20th century. Here's one story on this [1]. Cites to peer reviewed journals are available from Wikipedia [2].

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/ban-on...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#Toxicity

Putting extra lead in the environment increases the risk of people coming into contact with larger amounts of lead. Lead has been shown to cause health problems and birth defects.

Probably the clearest example: If one company is required to clean up its waste responsibly and the other one is allowed to do whatever it wants with its waste, the unregulated company will destroy the other one (perhaps literally by burying it under a mountain of waste).

> to clean up its waste responsibly

Why won't the unregulated company get sued if they dump their waste onto someone else's property (in/directly)?

That's precisely the tragedy of the commons - there is no "someone else" when it comes to things like water and air pollution, so without government regulation, there is no incentive to protect the commons, only use it in a manner to maximally improve one's own economic self interest, in a manner that harms all in an aggregate manner more than the community has been benefited.

It's a net-loss without some form of government regulation.

It's only a market failure, because it's publicly owned. Oceans and air is tricky, but rivers and lakes can certainly be privately owned.

But, regulation is also a public good and therefore also a market failure... so you end up with regulations that harm 99% of the people, like in the case of Uber in France.

For someone asking for evidence earlier, it's odd that you so like to toss around '99' like it's a factual number.

It's not a literal statement. Customers lose and taxi companies benefit. 99%/1%.

This really gets tiresome. Somebody states something pretty obvious, like the fact that the massive environmental harm of leaded gasoline outweighed the minor benefit to drivers, and you're right there asking for evidence without doing any work yourself. But when you make a much more precise and much less obvious claim about a specific set of regulations harming 99% of people, then "it's not a literal statement" and we should, apparently, not even think about asking you to back it up.

Anyone who works with demographics in a serious manner is aware that a 99% split is extraordinarily difficult to achieve.

You're actually saying that the regulations on Uber hurt 99% of the people of France. Children? The mentally ill? Prisoners? Soldiers stationed overseas? Farmers? People too poor to afford taxis in the first place?

Hell, people outside the Uber areas of service, which is apparently just Paris?

Each of these demographic segments pretty much wholly have no interest in something like Uber, and slice off percentage point after percentage point. And even when you take your twenty/thirty/fortysomething urban parisian with the money for car hire, plenty have life patterns that don't need a taxi or uber - they walk or cycle or bus or train it about.

'99%' is utter, utter tosh, both in the literal, and more importantly, in the contextual figurative sense it was given.

Because that "someone else's property" is often shared water/air resources, and when you cause $30 million in damages by causing 10 cents in damage each to 300 million people, there's no way to turn that into a lawsuit, even when tons of other people are doing the same thing and adding up to thousands of dollars of damage per person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Applicat...

Pollution regulations are an obvious example. Car emission regulations seem to be a pretty good thing, what with the distinct lack of smog in major US cities these days. Yet, if given the choice to opt in or opt out of the regulations, people would generally opt out, as it's cheaper for them personally. The result would be the return of car-related smog.

Car regulations are a great thing, and pollution levels have decreased a lot, even in LA.

Pollution is still a significant problem in LA.

> “Ozone and particle pollution contribute to thousands of hospitalizations, emergency room visits, and deaths every year,” Dr. Kari Nadeau, a Stanford Medical School professor and American Lung Association researcher, said when the State of the Air report was released. “Air pollution can stunt the lung development of children, and cause health emergencies, especially for people suffering from chronic lung disease, including asthma, chronic bronchitis, and emphysema. Both long-term and short-term exposures can result in serious health impacts.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/08/23/los-angele...

The numbers of people dying from car pollution is weirdly high, considering we don't hear much about it.

>the taxi industry is "heavily regulated" for the benefit of the customer

I get your point, but people decry the regulation that Uber is fighting against...until Uber implements free market "surge pricing". Then people are more than happy to leap back into the yellow cabs, which have their price regulated. Just read through some of the fallout.

In other words, all the free market vs regulation talk is lip service. People want what's best for themselves.

until Uber implements free market "surge pricing". Then people are more than happy to leap back into the yellow cabs, which have their price regulated

That is assuming they can find one. Surge pricing incentivizes drivers to actually show up and compensates them for tougher conditions and additional risk.

>Surge pricing incentivizes drivers to actually show up and compensates them for tougher conditions and additional risk.

I get it, and I believe it's well within their right, and also an interesting strategy. I'm not really knocking Uber, I'm knocking some of its supporters.

Again, read through some of the comments on mainstream articles regarding the surge price kerfuffle. Filled with people saying, "Suck it Uber and your dynamic pricing! I took a regular taxi!" Meaning, they'll support the unregulated market, as long as it's cheaper.

People want more de-regulation, but fail to see the seemingly "good" that comes from regulation; in this case, predictable pricing when you're trying to get somewhere.

Do you have any numbers or stories showing that extra drivers begin working when surge pricing comes into effect at uber?

"BART drivers earn six figures. Why do they even need a union?"

"Back in October, the French government mentioned this piece of legislation as these new services would hurt traditional cab drivers."

So? That's how the market and progress works. If a service can't stand up on it's own, it doesn't need to exist.

What a meaningless platitude. The world isn't quite as simple as that.

The real world is quite as simple as that. Whatever roadblocks the government has put in the way are better implemented elsewhere (through social safety nets, retraining, etc.)

You might have a point when different industries with different built-in subsidies compete (taxis vs. buses or trains vs. planes). That's not the case here.

Every time I see an Uber post related to Europe I wonder if in the US taxis don't need to pay the outrageous license fees (in addition to a whole lot of other things, like freelance income taxes.) It seems very beautiful on the outside, but in the end it seems like the service offered is a way for people to earn money without passing through the same hoops as others do. Seen from afar it seems innovation, but think again. It's unskilled people being paid for (what is usually) highly skilled work. Yes, I mean driving someone to a place.

> Every time I see an Uber post related to Europe I wonder if in the US taxis don't need to pay the outrageous license fees (in addition to a whole lot of other things, like freelance income taxes.)

A single NYC taxi medallion goes for millions of dollars: http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/about/average_medallion_pri...

Most Taxi drivers have to rent one; which is not cheap. The medallion owners get to sit on their asses in rake in the cash.

Your concern is misplaced.

I have read an article or two on NYC medallions, and obviously it's an aberration of a system. In Spain (for instance) you "just" need a license (either purchased second hand or new if there are new ones coming.) I think renting them is prohibited by law.

As mentioned by Crito, the taxi medallion system exists here, and it's a terribly broken system for everyone involved except, perhaps, the Taxi companies. A NYC taxi medallion can cost millions of dollars.

That said... the Uber black car drivers are licensed, only as private limo drivers rather than taxi drivers. They're not allowed to accept street hails. (Before smartphones, this meant having an advance reservation in place.) They're perfectly qualified to drive passengers.

And unlike most regular taxis I've experienced in the SF bay, Uber drivers aren't on their cell phone during the entire drive, so they're arguably safer drivers.

Sure, but in regards to creative destruction it is almost always true in my experience.

>If a service can't stand up on it's own, it doesn't need to exist.

Ask the people who were priced out of transportation due to surge pricing what they think of the situation. Now imagine if Uber had driven all regulated taxis out of business and people were forced to pay exorbitant surge-pricing fees.

I'm not really against Uber or this strategy, but the "market" doesn't always sort things out fairly.

The smart services will leverage this. "The quickest pickup allowed by law!"

Schedule pickups in exactly 15 minutes with one touch. Countdown timer on the app, etc.

...and they wonder why their economy is shit.

+1 to this.

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

I wonder when they will introduce a bill to force Google to wait 15 seconds to serve search results.

Don't say that.

It scares me.

An idea to "fix" this:

In the beginning (after signing up) a bunch of orders are created and sent out to the drivers. The orders technically exist, but the drivers are told to not show up right now. Then, at least 15 minutes later, the user can tap a "show up now" button which tells the driver to actually pick up the user. So in the end you have to wait 15 minutes when using the service for the first time, but after that it is a lot faster because the orders created in the beginning can be "activated" immediately.

You could argue that it's Uber's attempts to "fix" pesky regulations that have got them into this mess in the first place. I doubt trying to circumvent this in the way you describe would really make the regulators any more sympathetic towards Uber.

There's an interesting business case study to be done between Uber and Hailo (based in London, far more popular there than Uber, expanding overseas), the latter of which was founded by cab drivers themselves and has taken a far more 'softly softly' approach to compliance (arguably at the expense of revenue, but the benefit of not having to deal with this kind of thing).

Well the point of circumvention is not to engender sympathy. It's to find a legal loophole wherein even if the regulators hate you, they can't pursue you.

This is an interesting idea; however, it seems that it wouldn't necessarily help.

I'm uncertain whether the orders you speak of are reservations, or phonies with the purpose of circumventing the new bill. If the former is the case, drivers would still be unable to serve the greatest need - spontaneous rides. The latter could potentially work, but surely it would be caught eventually.

That's a workaround, not a fix.

A"hack" if you will.....

Sorry I will stop using that word now.

France is one of the most frustrating countries a young entrepreneur could ever work in. As soon as you find some way to bypass the rigidity of the system to create something new, to make life easier for people and actually create wealth, the octopus grows another arm to strangle you with. It just sucks the energy right out of you...

The UK may have its problems, but it's a breath of fresh air by comparison. It's no wonder 600,000 French people now live in London (and that's just the ones who registered at the embassy).

And no wonder that tens of thousands of Britons own second homes in France and many more holiday there.

Exactly. When the system allows you to create wealth, and keep enough of it to make it worth the effort, more people can afford to buy second homes in sunny places.

15 minutes? That's nothing

And you'll just order it 15min before your intended departure time

"In France, you have to pay a hefty price to get your taxi license"

How much does a taxi medallion cost in NYC again?

Last October, France passed a bill against heavy discounting on books. They have this thing, to protect the existing market order against the disruption caused by new channels.

My first reaction is always to think that it's ridiculous; but then again maybe all those measures are only meant to minimize the casualties of progress, more than just being an obstacle to progress.

>but then again maybe all those measures are only meant to minimize the casualties of progress, more than just being an obstacle to progress.

They are one in the same.

True, and as I said, it does seem ridiculous to me. At the same time, I understand that progress has often broader implications that might appear as a price too high to pay for the society. So, I just abstain from casting stones in that case; even if on the whole I am quite happy I am not in France anymore.

What are the penalties for ignoring this rule?

Guillotine

Maybe I'm not as smart as french lawmakers, but I can't really figure out how they'd even enforce this?

Either occasional stings to take make an example of people, or using it as a possible additional charge to pile on in situations where there is already an investigation. Most laws do not have vigilant enforcement.

For example, (barring illegal searches or likely illegal 'stop and frisk') how do you enforce possession laws?

As a french person, I would be pretty upset to think my taxes are going towards paying people to order Ubers and make sure they take at least 15 minutes to arrive. It almost seems like something out of a Monty Python sketch.

That would be absurd. I expect that in practice this law will not be enforced by itself.

For example: If Uber drivers start illegally parking in common pickup areas waiting for a call, then picking people up within seconds, then this law will probably be the sort of thing that they use to slam the drivers harder.

For a parallel example in the US, law enforcement here routinely sends underage people to attempt to purchase cigarettes or alcohol, in order to ensure that merchants are following the law around ID checks. This strikes me as similar, for better or for worse. (I'd vote worse, personally.)

Must each taxi driver also be named Harrison Bergeron?

I can't wait to see what creative solution all these officials will come up with when people start sharing their self-driving cars.

The same that is happening in the States; they'll make it illegal.

somehow I don't feel that we really need Uber, but simply more taxi plates. Uber is just a radio taxi, it's trying to use technology where the problem is legal.

So, can you get BOTH a taxi license and work for Uber ?

A taxi license cost over 240,000 euros in Paris.

Yes, I have seen traditional taxis drivers logged into Uber.

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