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There does seem to be a lot of negativity about "math", but at the same time people do generally know how to do basic arithmetic, problem solving, and even some algebra – none of which comes naturally to humans. You could argue that in average schools, kids "learn dumb ideas from half-interested teachers" in all subjects. The question therefore, is whether computer programming/science will suffer the same fate as math and become cool to hate, or be more like english, history, or foreign languages, which while not universally beloved, are at least not typically reviled. Honestly, I think that learning programming is probably a lot more fun than any of the traditional subjects. The interactivity and immediate feedback could actually make it by far the least distasteful subject for many school kids. If anything, programming could indirectly get more kids interested in math.

At some level 'math' becomes an academic word, and what students need is more rigourous fundamental numeracy. I hate the phrase 'quantitative' reasoning, but many people outside of maths departments actually use math in fundamental, yet rigorous ways. Part of the issue seems the deference to authority in the schooling system, which is paralleled in other ways...deference to 'expertise'...or 'abstraction' when what should be the heart of the matter is actually rigor and fundamental soundness. The latter is at conflict with other pet ideas, though. Like everybody wins and the overpromotion of self esteem. The cool to hate ("fancy math") thing is just a channeled form of anti-authoritarianism. Whereas fundamental soundness is actually providing the tools for power and freedom for the individual. When schools (but rarely) teach proper maths notation...I wonder...how/are they going to swallow cs?

Students are taught that "math" is doing arithmetic by hand, simplifying and factoring expressions, memorization, plugging-and-chugging formulas, and in general performing rote computations with pencil and paper. These things are simply not pleasant for a lot of people. Nothing anti-authoritarian about it, they're just unpleasant and repetitive tasks that any good hacker would be aching to automate.

I had great science teachers who taught me about fundamental soundness, reasoning from first principles, developing/testing/revising quantative models, and describing the state and behavior of the universe (i.e. what calculus was created for in the first place). That was fun. But nobody was doing that thinking "so this is math" because it wasn't called that, it was called physics or chemistry.

When you are in an a middle or high school classroom called "Math" with a book called "Math" you are doing rote algebraic manipulation, full stop. So that is what math is to you. No wonder people hate it.

Fundamental soundness, proof, etc. has very little to do with numeracy in the sense of mental arithmetic, estimation skills. Those are useful too, but different things. I still can't multiply two-digit numbers in my head but that never posed a problem in calculus, computer science, chemistry, physics, or anything else.

> I still can't multiply two-digit numbers in my head but that never posed a problem in calculus, computer science, chemistry, physics, or anything else. How about daily life? Would you rather pull out a calculator?

In my experience, (fast) mental arithmetic is very very useful for all sorts of things. Shopping, driving, eating, anything.

Useful, yes. Fundamental to soundness, proof, etc? Not at all.

Sure kids will hate all kinds of subjects. I always hated math in school until I started using it in programming. I think getting kids from poor families on a computer with the compiler set up can get the ones who had a knack for it but never had the opportunity to maybe start pursuing a career in it. People who later became programmers/engineers soaked up any kind of programming/CS class like sponges and went way beyond the scope once they got excited.

> It's also important to remember highschool teachers aren't college professors. You may have had awesome and passionate HS teachers, but from what I saw, there don't seem to be very many.

I had some -- none in my programming classes, though -- but that wasn't all too different than my college experience. If anything, the high school teachers seemed, on average, better teachers, though perhaps in a worse teaching environment.

The college professors obviously had more formal education in their subject area.

> I think the quickest way to destroy a future programmer is by forcing them to learn dumb ideas from half-interested teachers during their formative years.

I think the quickest way to destroy a potential future programmer is to have them learn nothing relevant from anyone during their formative years.

"It's also important to remember highschool teachers aren't college professors. You may have had awesome and passionate HS teachers, but from what I saw, there don't seem to be very many."

So, because you had some lousy high school teachers, that means college professors are passionate and high school teachers aren't? Why are high school teachers inferior to college professors?