Where Working-Age Americans Are Moving
forbes.com
forbes.com
Don't get me wrong, I love Houston. But it's not just a sea of cheap McMansions. There are a lot of very highly paid oil executives, corporate attorneys, and physicians (Texas Medical Center) who can easily afford a $1M+ home so the urban core of the city is really transforming into a much more expensive and exclusive area.
You really have to get out into the suburbs before housing becomes more approachable. But then you have to add commutes into the city to find interesting work with little to no public transit options.
All the cities in Texas have terrible public transportation with little to no plans to improve it. We're basically headed down the same road as California in this respect which is sad because our regulatory environment is supposedly much better.
That last part is important =) You'll live a lot cheaper in Luling than Houston, but outside of great barbecue, there isn't much going on there.
The inner loop is really expensive for housing stock, definitely, and even it has nothing on the memorial villages! That being said, the whole east side is still pretty cheap. The same house that would cost you $500k in the Heights can be bought for $250k in Eastwood/Idylwood.
Apartments are definitely a bargain in Houston, though. Even the "luxury apartments" are half the price of a normal apartment in San Francisco.
I think this is much more important than rental prices.
Yes, your expected to give up all semblance of having a life outside your children once you have them.
American town planning has been a disaster since time immemorial.
I just wish it was possible to live in a neighborhood which has good schools, nice neighborhood kids who you can trust to babysit, combined with somewhere within walking distance that's worth going to when you've got a sitter.
The problem with schools is that it is a very large entrenched organization, with lots of special interests (politicians, teachers, administration, etc) who don't want to give up monopoly power. The central organizations suck in a lot of money, and don't improve quality. There are ways to fight this (more charters, close bad schools, etc) but it's very hard and requires a lot of different folks in government willing to fight special interests.
On the urban planning side, American cities spend huge amounts of time and effort preventing the demolition of old housing and the construction of housing. This drives up the price of housing.
On the welfare policy side, American states corral all their poor people into their large cities. In Manhattan, riverfront property might be dedicated either to expensive condos (upper west side), or public housing (lower east side). The suburbs, for their part, go to great lengths to prevent the introduction of services for lower-income people.
In most cities, #2 is a bigger problem than #1. If you're willing to compromise on space, living in the suburbs often isn't dramatically cheaper. In theory, getting a 1,500 square foot house would be cheaper in the suburbs versus the city, but suburban municipalities tend to discourage the construction of smaller houses, so often the choice is between 1,500 square feet in the city, or 3,000 square feet in the suburbs, at not altogether dissimilar prices factoring in the cost of commuting and cars.
The biggest problem is schools. In most places, you have to pay for public schools even if you send your kid to private school. And public schools in cities are almost uniformly terrible, not because public schools in cities must intrinsically be terrible, but because as a result of #2, urban school districts are 90%+ low-income. Putting a bunch of poor kids all together in the same school is not a recipe for success. People like to paint it as a funding problem, but its a socioeconomic demographics problem. In Illinois, schools inside Chicago spend almost 40% more per student than schools outside Chicago, but perform far below those outside the city.
Now of course, even the most progressive parents aren't willing to send their children to schools where 90% of the kids come from welfare homes, disproportionately don't have fathers, etc. And they don't want to pay $10,000 per year (for parochial schools), or $20,000+ (for non-religious schools) to send their kids to private schools. So they move to the suburbs, where they can send their kids to socioeconomically homogenous public schools, and take advantage of the services for which they're paying for anyway.
I think the confluence of these factors is really unfortunate, and has an unfortunate impact on American families. First, I think it discourages people who might want kids from having kids. Second, it robs kids of the wonderfully enriching experience of living in cities, in close proximity to other people.
The neighborhoods with excellent schools and excellent bar scenes exist, but you and I mere mortals are priced out of them.
Funding schools based off of local property values creates a rich-get-richer scheme for school quality. It also encourages people to sprawl, which is what we don't want to encourage if we want vibrant, walkable environments. If every student in America had the same funding (cost of living adjusted) we wouldn't have as many failing schools or encourage people to flee the city when they have a kid.
What encourages people to flee the city when they have a kid is that urban liberals are incredibly hostile to the idea of allowing school boundaries to be drawn along socioeconomic lines. Middle class parents don't just want to send their kids to schools that are adequately funded (as schools in most major cities certainly are), but to schools where the other kids are from families like themselves. They don't want their kids being influenced by kids whose dads are in jail for drug dealing. That's the politically-incorrect reality of parenthood. They can get this in the suburbs, but cities make it extremely difficult and expensive to do this.
For example, until recently San Francisco had this wonderful (from a social progress point of view), but terrible (from a parenting and urbanism point of view), policy of not having "home" schools based on geographic location, but incorporating some element of lottery selection. The net result was that middle and upper class people couldn't pick their schools by moving to a particular neighborhood. Of course, this created a tremendous incentive to just leave the city, and even ultra-liberal san francisco was recently forced to end the policy.
The problem is that school policy has been hijacked by teachers, so the debate always revolves around "more money." But throwing lots of money at a school where 75% of kids don't have a father in their lives isn't going to help those kids learn. Throwing money at things like Section 8, which might let those families move to suburbs where they can go to a school where they aren't surrounded by that culture, that could really push forward the cause of social progress.
In cased you missed it, segregation is bad. It was bad 50 years ago and it is bad now. Parents that are trying to bring it back under they guise of 'think of the children' absolutely should be smacked down.
One way or the other, middle class people will send their kids to schools with the kids of other middle class people. The question is whether those schools will be in suburbia, or will be allowed to exist in the cities. It's almost certainly better for everyone involved if they're allowed to exist in the cities.
So clearly we should enshrine it in law. We better make sure that middle class kids never see anyone less fortunate then themselves.
I don't see that the mobility of the middle class is as easy as you paint it.
At least if middle class families live in the city, there is some hope of gradual integration. Through measures like Section 8, which often pays for low-income families to live in nicer neighborhoods, urban schools in wealthier areas can be 10-20% low-income. Parents will tolerate that. It's the 80-90% low-income schools, which make up the vast majority of urban schools, that they won't tolerate.
No I'm not. People will move (if they can or want to) for many reasons. That is not a reason to make sure you never deal with 'the undesirables' just because one of those reasons is the parents bigotry.
> At least if middle class families live in the city, there is some hope of gradual integration.
History disagrees with you.
Not sending your kids to a school that's 80-90% low-income is a rational choice. See: http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/cps-alternatives-suburb... ("On the Program for International Student Assessment in 2009, U.S. schools with small proportions of low-income students did as well as schools anywhere in the world—while American schools whose enrollments were more than 75 percent low-income scored like schools in developing countries.", "Most important, many studies have also highlighted the importance of 'peer effects' in schools. They've shown that kids benefit from classmates whose parents have stimulated them cognitively from an early age, and who have helped them develop self-control and other social skills—the kind of parenting more common in middle-class homes than in poor homes.").
But you're totally right. Parental education, parental economic circumstances, the prevalence of two-parent households, etc, those aren't the important things when it comes to education. What really matters is that "every student in America ha[s] the same funding." That's why Chicago Public Schools and Fairfax County Public Schools both spend about $13,000/year per pupil, and have almost identical results to show for it...
Personally, call me an engineer, but step one is always identify the problem. If you think this is a modern-day form of segregation, you need to let yourself admit it is happening, and thereby identify the problem. Getting angry at people pointing it out and refusing to believe it is merely a way of guaranteeing you'll have no impact. Skipping over step one does not make problems go away.
(Or you could prove rayiner wrong. I suspect that's not really a feasible road here. Social policies are inevitably clumsy things aimed at thousands or millions; motivated individuals can often dodge around them quite well, and in this case, they are quite motivated.)
Certainly you can see the problem with then cementing in law or policy what is just because it is.
> step one is always identify the problem
Step two is not write policy so there no longer is a problem.
Not a reason to instigate such as policy.
Bussing has other problems anyway, usually that being very bad for the health and performance of the children being bussed.
Is that assumption actually true? What do you guys think?
If millenials go child-free in large numbers, they would be the first American generation to do so. There may be precedents in places like modern Japan, but the culture in Japan is so different that I am hesitant to extrapolate from that data point.
Is this really true? I was hyper-sensitive to rent just out of school. Every $100/month difference meant something I would have to write out of my life. Perhaps it's more true that very young people don't mind cramming 6 people in a house or apartment meant for 3.
This doesn't discount the conclusion, though of older people leaving cities like NY, but I think that's more about poor educational options for kids, rather than higher sensitivity to rent.
They're both cities and they're both hiring.
There's maybe a half dozen places in the world I can do what I do. Orlando is not one of them.
I'm not sure why, but some companies are willing to waste a lot of their revenues fighting an increased cost of living in some places, just for the prestige of the address.
Apple has enough money in the bank to make their own Celebration, Florida, like Disney did. Why buy expensive space in someone else's crummy old city, when you can buy land cheaply, build your own town, and sell off the pieces at much higher prices?
When you realize that, in walking cities with "ultra-high" rents, you can subtract the cost of car+gas+insurance+parking (and just tack back on the cost of your MetroCard), it's a different way of thinking about it.
* Eugene is a smallish city with a the University of Oregon. If it played its cards right, it could be something like Boulder. But it doesn't seem like a lot is going on there, and the weather... well, it's pretty grim, like all of western Oregon. In my opinion, 5C and rain is worse than some snow from time to time in terms of 'bad weather'.
* Bend is kind of on the small side to have much going on, but maybe has more than Eugene for its size?
* Southern Oregon - Ashland in particular, is a nice place to live as it's a bit drier than further north, but it's still on the smallish side, and I don't know that there's really much of an 'ecosystem' there. I could see living there if I had a bootstrapped thing going and wanted somewhere cheaper to live that's still nice in some ways.
* Portland is big enough to have a real community, and is a good city for the right kind of person. I can't stand the weather myself.
If anyplace in Oregon were to be Boulder, I'd say Bend has the best shot. Granted, it's an outsider's point of view, but I think it's closer to mountains and at a bit of elevation. Seems like more athletic stuff going on, bigger cycling community and the like. On the downside, it seems as if that main road through town becomes more and more of one giant strip mall. Job-wise, seems like there a few more opportunities than Eugene.
Portland? Plenty going on there, and between Seattle and Portland I'd choose Portland. Seattle wants to be quirky and hip, but doesn't pull it off as well as Portland, IMO. Portland's smaller, too, but seems to have enough going on to satisfy my tastes.
In the end, though, I could find a new job next week in the Seattle area. I lose a job in Eugene or Bend, I'm screwed. That's okay, the Seattle area is nice, too.
Having lived in Eugene for a while, I'd say it's pretty nice, but you might get bored pretty quickly, even as a runner. It's just to small (for me).
I think Portland is better for outdoorsy stuff in general. There's Forest Park, Mt Tabor, etc in the city and lots of camping, hiking, snowboarding nearby.
I'm in San Luis Obispo CA now and, while the 2 cities are pretty similar in size and other aspects, SLO has a much better tech/startup scene.
Apropos of nothing, and deeply OT, don't suppose any HNers could recommend a moving company or three that are good at cross-country moves?
Close suburbs of the CA cities are definitely an option, even Seattle is not out of the question (oddly, I love rainy weather...), but it seems like the cohorts need some sort of geographic slicing. Where are people moving from to increase the presence of a cohort? I have a hard time imagining that a lot of tech people from SV will pack up and go to New Orleans or Florida. If this is where you are from or have family at, it makes more sense, but I wouldn't expect a large number of people that never lived in those areas/cities, to suddenly want to move there just because they got older/settled down.
An interesting infographic would be to show migration patterns over time, from where you are born, to where you go to college, work, etc. and then retire. For me, I'm expecting a boomerang-looking flow to where I went to high school.
Area politicians are desperate to improve the economy; if you're looking for a new site for a medium-to-large business, especially if you're in a high-tech industry that's perceived as going up instead of going down, you'll likely find the Rust Belt's state and local governments to be quite accomodating.
Those buseinsss and shops don't open there because the demographics aren't there.
The only thing that changes this is when a large organization decides to make things happen and move a significant base of people to that locale. City governments are generally not big enough to convince enough employers to move, and large companies only do this if they get massive tax breaks which can be unpopular with citizens and local businesses (i.e., it's a risky investment - which investors don't like).
Rent is ridiculously high because of zoning restrictions against construction or limiting building height (which increases housing costs).
I think Austin has to be my #1 city in America that I have left to visit.
That's where I want to move. Any ideas?
I guess that's a long way of saying you're not going to find another Southern California in the continental United States, let alone a cheaper one.
EDIT: The reason Brick from Anchorman is dumb is because he's the weatherman. The subtle joke (maybe the only one in the film) is that the weather in San Diego is so consistently nice that you can be as dumb as a brick and still be a weatherman in San Diego.
1) The weather is just perfect all year long.
2) The cost of living, while high, isn't insane compared to places like the Bay Area or NYC.
3) The public schools are actually quite good in many of the areas without being far flung from the city.
The big downside, however, is that there just aren't many local jobs for techies. The few that exist pay very little compared to the ones in the Bay Area or even a little further north in LA despite the cost of living being on the high side.
My wife and I have talked about moving there for a while (we both work from home) but the big challenge is that we'd have to find other income streams (in addition to our day jobs) to fund a good lifestyle in San Diego. In the face of a pretty tepid local job market and challenges with remote work pay being lower, that seems to be a requirement to make it out there.
I currently live in Dallas, TX and for me the numbers work out this way:
* Housing is 2-3x more expensive for comparable neighborhoods.
* Jobs pay about 10-15% less on average.
So if you have a $100K income and own a $300K home in Texas, you can expect to get a $85K income and own a $900K home (worst case scenario). Downsizing can make the numbers more favorable, but it only gets you so far.
All that being said, I would probably need an secondary income stream that provides an additional 25% or more of my primary income stream to justify moving out there.
Food for thought ...
There is also a great web/javascript community that is growing in the area called sandiego.js (http://sandiegojs.org/). I attended most of their talks this summer and there were always people looking to hire people to do work for them.