Comment by msantos | Hacker News Reader

Comment by msantos | Hacker News Reader

The French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy.

Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausible by some members of the Brazilian government although not widely publicized. Some blame the French for possible sabotaging it.

Over the years the Brazilian secret service (ABIN), have arrested several French spies around Alcantara - the latest case was that a French spy posing as kitesurf instructor. Other cases include water buoys found at sea near the Air Base loaded with electronics, also blamed on the French.

EDIT: added a few sources (sorry portuguese only)

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/poder/137424-suspeita-de-sa...

http://www.metro.org.br/jose_alves/os-cacas-militares-e-as-b...

http://jornalpequeno.com.br/2013/11/22/governo-confirma-cont...

http://www.planobrazil.com/dez-anos-depois-explosao-de-fogue...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_rocket_explosion

I used to know a mechanic in the Australian air force back in the 90s, and he said that Dassault lost out on bids for us because they were big on lock-in. I don't know if it's still true, but back then, my mate said that you had to have a custom toolkit to work on a Dassault plane - so anywhere you might conceivably ever want to work on a plane, you'd have to supply it with their custom kit. We're talking things as simple as screwdrivers.

> old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad

I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets. They cannot be controlled after lit (the VLS used all-solid-fuel-with-oxidizer and not solid-fuel-with-liquid-oxidizer).

When you are doing something nobody else is doing it the same way you are (in special the people who have been successfully doing it for decades) it's time for you to question your own wisdom.

A lot was said about it back then.

After the explosion, the Brazilian Space Agency was criticized for using solid-fuel rockets, which are easier to build and ignite than liquid-fuel rockets, but also dangerous because they lack throttle controls and emergency shut-offs.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_rocket_explosion)

And those guys were our elite rocket scientists...

It's sad so many died in the accident, but engineering and rocketry are notoriously unforgiving.

I don't think it was a matter of 'wisdom'. The drawbacks are pretty obvious for everyone, specially for rocket scientists.

My bets are on extreme cost reduction measures, plus unrealistic deadlines.

> I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets.

Sure they do.

For example, NASA's LADEE mission was launched to the moon in September 2013 on a Minotaur V: a five-stage all-solid rocket.

Last month, India just launched a Mars orbiter using the PSLV: a 4-stage rocket with only the second and fourth stages being liquid. The first stage was solid, and had 6 solid rocket boosters. Thus, it launched entirely on solids.

And of course, there are lots of liquid-fueled rockets with solid boosters on liquid-fueled rockets. The French Ariane 5, for example, has one liquid core stage plus two solids. The solids produce 92% of thrust at liftoff. Solids are great at producing thrust.

The American Titan IIIc rocket took this configuration to its ultimate conclusion. It was launched solely on the solid rocket boosters. The liquid-fueled core stage did not even ignite until a couple of minutes into the mission, i.e., although it was at the bottom of the stack, it actually served as a second stage.

If you're talking about spacefaring nations that avoid solids, you're really only talking about the Russians, Chinese, and Ukrainians. They only use solids on military missions, and stick with liquids on civilian missions. They get the necessary thrust by clustering lots of engines together.

The Chinese moon rover, for example, was launched on a Long March 3B with a total of 8 engines ignited at lift-off -- 4 liquid-fueled engines in the core stage, plus 4 liquid rocket boosters. Yes, that's right, even their strap-on boosters are liquid-fueled.

Thanks for pointing that out. Still, all-solid doesn't look like a very popular choice.

Care to cite your sources? (en/fr/pt)

Done

Thanks.

Why is France so concerned with Brazil...?

There's big money to be made launching satellites. The Alcantara Launch Centre (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%C3%A2ntara_Launch_Center) is in theory the biggest competitor to the French launch centre in Guiana, where most of the European satellites are launched from. I say in theory because although they share the best geoloc in the world when it comes to geosync orbit launches, the Guiana centre is a fully functional space centre while the Brazilian counterpart is not much more than a naked launch pad.

But with the right partners and some investment the Alcântara could become a real treat to the French centre in Guiana.

ABIN can't arrest people.

Yes it can, I know that for a fact. It doesn't normally do it because it would blow the agents covers and so they rely on "Policia Federal" to carry out arrests.

Their own website is wrong then. Question 10 here says they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people:

http://www.abin.gov.br/modules/mastop_publish/?tac=Perguntas...

  > they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people

Let's face it, that's not exactly what their website says. A translation would be more like ... policing is beyond their "job scope" and detaining, arresting and interrogating are activities incompatible with the Intelligence work they do - for obvious reasons.

So, saying that they don't detain nor arrest people is fair point. Although they could detain and so could any other Brazilian citizen detain any person caught red handed (Latin In flagrante delicto) as stated in the Brazilian constitution.

Actually, that's pretty accurately what their website says:

"Can ABIN arrest people? No. ABIN doesn't have police powers/attributions."

Original in Portuguese: A ABIN pode prender pessoas? Não. A ABIN não tem atribuições de polícia. Deter, prender, custodiar ou interrogar são atos incompatíveis com a atividade de Inteligência.

Saying any Brazilian citizen can detain someone caught in a criminal act is not what we're talking about here.

But they provide all-source to the people that can.

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