Ask HN: Startup vs Girlfriend | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Startup vs Girlfriend

67 pointsalexitosrv116 comments

I'm in a kind of dilemma...

I'm 25, computer engineer with masters. I have a day job, I also have a halftime startup. I also have french lessons at saturdays. In the startup, we have several ambitious projects in execution. I enjoy my work (although sometimes I recognize myself as feeling exhausted...), however as I come from a mid class (more towards poor) family, I have a strong perception (with evidence) of that if I do hard work I can achieve some moderate level of wealth. I really did like my relationship with my girlfriend, but lately she keeps saying about how little time I dedicate to herself, and how my main interest had been turned on the startup success...

I admit the quality of our relationship has been seriously lowered, and I feel very sad on both of us. I imagined a future with her. I really love her but according to her expectations (reasonable after all) my dedication is not enough.

I don't know what to do. What should I do? should I focus more on my gf and quit my aspirations of becoming "rich" in the near future (with high costs like losing her)? or should I prefer a more balanced lifestyle with lower expectations?

Please some experienced advice would be grateful.

[ EDIT ]

She was involved on the startup with ideas and support, and formally too with 33% of representation and legal paperwork. A couple of days ago she told me she want to leave the thing because my lack of commitment with her. Her argument was a sort of "given that you aren't going to anywhere with me, I want to quit of the startup"

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I'm surprised only one person's mentioned the French lessons . Can't you give those up and spend that time with her? That way you're making a sacrifice without compromising your startup. Win-win. Unless your goals in life are to speak French and get rich.

Alternatively, get her involved? Does she want to support you in your quest for wealth? Can you get her interested? One mistake I made with an ex was to not tell him what I was doing with my startup and starting to snap at him whenever he asked questions about what was going on; mostly this was due to fear of admitting failure to him later.

My main advice - and this is coming from someone who's been a hacker's girlfriend, y'unnerstand - is talk to her.

[edit in reply to edit] Well, if she's been involved and is walking away, doesn't that tell you something?

If you take "hours spent doing something" as your yardstick, your girlfriend seems to your lowest priority (behind your startup and French lessons). Before you ask whether you should choose between your girlfriend or your startup, maybe you should choose between your girlfriend and your French lessons.

I agree. Startups are very time consuming, but a good relationship is important for keeping your sanity. Throw away everything else not essential to your health. Give her more attention. IF that doesn't improve the relationship, then you may have a girl friend who is jealous of the startup. If, in the end, you are just a meal ticket to her desires, it wont work in the long run.

Principle of least regret. Which will you regret passing up the least? Think about 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, and 10. Assign these number values. Make up a contingency tree, to cover the eventualities as they'd happen if your plans don't work out. Also assign number values to the leaves. Weight the leaves according to rough estimates of probability. Choose the path with the least regret.

I disagree. If French lessons are important to him, why should he give them up? It sounds like one of the few things he does for himself (outside of work) and it may provide a good outlet for him to page out his work and focus on something completely different.

One possibility is to set aside time explicitly, as he's doing for his class. Going out on an actual date once or twice a week may make up for the heads down time in her mind. It would also provide another way to switch out the working set.

In this hypothetical situation, he should give up French lessons to spend more time with his girlfriend.

I'm in the exact same boat. My thoughts...

If you "really love her", then you already oughta know what's most important. (Most important, not the only thing.)

Her "expectations" are not really expectations. They are cries for help. Listen.

Some of the things we have done:

- We take French lessons together and speak French around the house all the time.

- We always eat dinner together.

- We go out somewhere every weekend (usually not my pick).

- We catch up by phone several times a day.

It's hard to explain, but I have a "more balanced lifestyle" without "lower expectations". You can have both. It's up to you to find a way.

[EDIT: Forgot one of the most important things: Sunday brunch is a big deal at our house. We shop together (the night before), cook together, and sit together for 2 to 3 hours at a table full of great food and 3 newspapers. At first, I thought it was a waste of time, but now I really look forward to it.]

Very smart advice. I wish I'd read it a few months ago.

Unfortunately, in my case, I focused on the start-up and then my girlfriend eventually left me.

I think the best advice is probably the dinner thing. It creates a ritual that brings you together. I wish I'd done that.

Another good piece of advice is to make sure you're living on the same time-table, and try to shift things around so that you're free when she's free. Yes, it might be a little inconvenient to wake up earlier and work in the morning so that you can spend the evening with her, but it's not that big a deal once you get used to it.

You're asking a group of strangers whether it's okay to leave your girlfriend. That tells me that you should place your priority on your startup.

He is asking a group of people who have a greater-than average chance to have been in a similar situation in the past. Benefiting from the experience of others seems like a wise thing to do.

That's exactly my point. When he finds a woman that doesn't leave him questioning what to do, he'll know without asking.

Unless you've never made relationship choices that you later regret, I think asking for advice is a valid and important thing to do.

Or if you've always made relationship choices that you later regret.

Uptown is right on the money.

It's like marriage - people say that you'll know when you know. If you're not sure if you know, then you don't know.

Lots of people are sure, and sure they're sure, and they still get divorced in droves.

This is pure fantasy and not at all representative of the real world problems and considerations that go into making a working relationship.

The same couple that "just knows" they are great for each other during great times will be unsure if circumstances outside of their control lead to more difficult times. Doubt is a natural and healthy response when conflicting responsibilities clash in life, and should not be interpreted as some sort of signal that there is no "magic" or that it isn't "destiny".

I don't believe in "magic" or "destiny" - that's not what I'm referring to here. I'm also not talking about knowing you're "great" for another person.

I'm talking about knowing you're _committed_ to another person. When you know you're _committed_ to another person you don't have to wonder if French lessons should go, or the startup should go, or the girl should go.

In theory I could know that I'm great for 314 different people, but that's a lot different than knowing that I'm committed to one.

This isn't fantasy and it's extremely representative of what goes into making a working relationship.

You watch too many Sandra Bullock movies. Life doesn't really work that way.

Speak for yourself. I know the precious few people I'd give up some of my ambitions for. There's never a soundtrack involved but the quiet confidence remains.

If it's even worth questioning then the relationship isn't worth it. I wouldn't leave my partner for any degree ofbusiness success.

I know this comment is pretty late since this popped up, but I had this exact experience before.

I lost the girl, and in the end the startup didn't go anywhere for other reasons.

This woman was the love of my life and we were together for almost 8 years. The last year we were together, I started putting a lot of time into a business idea and it cost me a lot of the time we had always had to spend together.

I don't blame my startup on losing her, though. I think it just brought some other issues up that had always been easily overlooked. The little things that just don't matter when you really, really love someone. But when we started getting stressed a bit because of the loss time, those things came up.

All I can say is, don't listen to anyone that tells you to go one way or another. You have to ask yourself if you guys really, really, REALLY fucking care about each other.

Think about this. Do you want to be an old, wrinkled man holding her hand one last time as she smiles at you one more time before breathing out for the last time and your children and grandkids are all around you?

Or is she just a girlfriend?

Businesses will come and go. That one person out of all 6 billion of us that is more important than all the others will not.

There's no reason you have to give up one or the other. If you're the one for her, and her for you, then you guys need to compromise and make sure both succeed.

The harsh truth is this girl probably won't be around forever. She probably has a legitimate complaint, but it also sounds like you're doing what's most important to you right now. When you're in the right relationship you should feel like your partner is supportive and feel like you can be a better person than you can be alone. Relationship maintenance should come naturally. It may not always be easy, but it should feel at least as important as the other things you do instead of like a chore. That's not the vibe I'm getting from what you wrote. It sounds like work is what you love and your girlfriend is the job.

[edit]

Maybe my take on this is a little tainted. I was in a similar situation many years ago. I chose the girl and I'll probably continue to kick myself for it a while longer. In my case, the fact that we even had this issue was probably indicative of the relationship not being the right fit for either of us. There are a lot of things that I wish I'd been able to do back then.

You're 25. Realize that whatever you decide is a representation of this period in your life and does not necessarily reflect how your life is going to be lived until you die.

Allow yourself to make mistakes and take chances. If you go after the girl, maybe it won't lead to anything. But it doesn't mean you've squandered your chances at success. If you succeed (or fail) at your startup, it doesn't mean you're going to die alone.

Think hard about your gut intuition. Deep down inside you probably know what's right, and you just need a little encouragement.

Good point. I'd still say one can do both, if one properly manages his or her time (I'm not saying that's easy though).

startups are two a penny, a real relationship is worth a whole lot more.

Also, to every story there are two sides and we're hearing only one.

People are more valuable than things (money). Open communication is key. People never want to feel like they are the second most important thing in your life. Putting her first doesn't mean you have to give up on your other dreams, but you have to be mindful of what you are communicating through your actions. Sit down with her and articulate the fact that she is a priority for you, but that you realize that you haven't been communicating that very well. Leave your ego at the door and ask her what kinds of specific things you could do to communicate to her that she comes first. If you are willing to listen may be surprised how even some small simple things could go a long way towards making her feel important and valued.

The biggest thing I think is that people communicate differently, therefore somethings that aren't a big deal to us may be a big deal to other people, and we might not even realize that we are communicating something we don't intend. If you can get over that hurdle you may find that it doesn't have to be an either-or situation.

There is also the fact that if you are working too much to maintain even one healthy relationship, then you are working to much. We have people who care about us in our lives becasue they can help us see our blind spots. If She is feeling that your life is out of balance, you should listen to that and do some evaluating, even for the sake of your own health.

If she truly loves you she will understand that your need to be creative and be in business for yourself is a part of who you are, but by the same token, you can't let success rob you of the most important treasures in life: your relationships with other human beings.

You're right but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You can have people and things. Sure, there are trade-offs, but it's doable.

I'm 26 and my situation is nearly identical to the OP, with one big exception: My fiance and I share the same values.

And what it really means is just, "do you want the same things out of life." And WRT this subject, we both feel strongly that the surest path to happiness in our careers (and to wealth) is to work for ourselves. It's been 2 years since we made the leap together and it's been successful, if off-the-plan.

Her skills compliment mine (She's a great designer and a true people-person). She's done a lot of design and sales work, plus a lot of administrative stuff.

We both think that in the long run we'd benefit from having pursuits outside our marriage and once we've reached a point where we can pay for what she brings to the table now at no extra charge, she'll lay the foundation for her own ideas, which we'll fund and persue as quickly as is prudent.

There's been snags along the way. There will certainly be more of them. And I lived with a woman for a year and a half prior to meeting my soon-to-be wife and we had none of this shared-values chemistry and that eventually contributed to the hard choice of pursuing our separate paths. Mine led me here, and I couldn't be happier.

People are far more important than money. But if you're young and not yet married, without children, without a mortgage, you should ask "do I want to make this sacrifice. Can I find a way to have both." Your life is short. And you get one shot. Don't settle.

"it doesn't have to be an either-or situation."

I agree, which is why I put that part in there :)

Since when was building a startup ever about money? Money should be an afterthought.

I agree though that people are more important than things. When break-up time happens, make sure you treat her with respect, and let her know that there are bigger things at stake.

> People are more valuable than things (money).

SOME people are more valuable to you than things/money. Others aren't. We don't know her value.

(1) What did she do that's worth 30% of your company?

(2) Does she respect your work?

The girlfriend will be gone in a few years anyways. The sad part is, chances are the startup will be gone too. So... think about what do you wish you had been doing a few years from now.

Myself, I've gone with the work. I never regretted it, but then I knew she wasn't the girl for me. What I remember most powerfully was how unpleasant was the feeling that she made me choose. Maybe i'm a romantic guy, but I believe a the right girl would pack you a healthy lunch and encourage you, not make you feel guilty you do what you love.

I think you're confusing allowing self-destructive trampling with romance.

Anyone who's such a doormat that they'll encourage you regardless of the cost to them is not capable of true romance.

Your desire for unconditional support is pure selfishness, and not conducive to a great relationship.

Your and radu's comments are exactly opposite, but none of them is quite right - you need to take the middle road.

What's the point of being rich if you don't have someone to share it with? Money alone isn't going to make you feel successful or happy. If you think this girl might make you happy, I'd take her over the start up.

Same. If you do go the startup route, why not involve her? If she spends all her time on the startup, and you spend all your time on the startup, you get the best of both worlds.

> If she spends all her time on the startup, and you spend all your time on the startup, you get the best of both worlds.

Business partnerships are already volatile enough without adding romance into the mix.

If you don't get on with someone well enough to run a business with them, you don't get on with them well enough to have a serious relationship, either.

Ever hear of the mom-and-pop store? Couples, even married couples, have been running businesses together for centuries. My parents owned and ran businesses together. In fact, "can I run a small business with this person" isn't a bad question to ask yourself about a potential life partner :)

This is excellent advice. However, finding that out through the crucible of running a business has the added peril that both your relationship and your business will fail at the same time.

It does. But you don't get risk without reward. If she sticks with you even if your business failed and you're both broke and need to get day jobs again, she's a keeper ;)

My parents owned and ran two businesses together, but they never got rich. But it wasn't a bad way to live, and they definitely saw more of each other than they would have with day jobs. Though to be fair, they also had my dad's retired pay from the military, which mitigated a lot of risks and meant they'd never be truly broke.

If you're doing this startup for the money, then go with the girl. But understand that she won't ever let you do a startup ever again. What happens if you do something else time-intensive, like climbing the corporate ladder?

The first thing you should do is essentially read her what you've typed here. It sounds like your relationship would benefit a great deal from some openness. She isn't going to react to this badly.

And in my experience with women, a little bit of time goes a long way if you do it right. Surprise her with flowers. Take her on a picnic. These things don't take much time but give her something to brag about to her lady friends.

You'd be surprised how just a few hours a week can convert a downward spiral relationship into a flourishing one.

"She isn't going to react to this badly."

I wouldn't be so sure ... "WHAT? You share our personal problems with the whole internet? You are going to let a bunch of nerds decide on our relationship?"

Of course, she may as well be a very reasonable person, but we don't know.

Taken a little bit too literally. I meant that he should share his dilemma with her. How she is a very important part of his life but so is the startup. However even if taken literally I doubt she would react the way you are saying. From what he's said she sounds like a tech literate person and may have even posted a question of her own somewhere on the tubes.

Dude. Be honest. Its over. You aren't looking for answer on what to do. You already have it. You want to know if your indifference to her is poor form or if you are still a human.

She wanted to know if you thought she was more important than your career. If you would give everything up for her. All women want to know that.

Clearly because you have to think about it, she is not most important. She knows it. You know it. (example: "I really did like my relationship with my girlfriend...")

Be honest. Grow a pair. You aren't a bad person.

Smile this is life and you are participating.

You're 25. Your life is, and should be, all about you and your dreams right now. If you're going to have a healthy relationship with a quality person who will add to your life, it needs to be worth the price. It sounds like she isn't.

Your ideas about wealth are correct. More to the point, working hard is clearly a part of your identity and an important thing to you. You need someone who understands and respects and values drive. Women like that are out there, and you're not going to end up with someone like that if you are the type of person who bends his ambitions around someone else. That's not the guy she's looking for. Don't be dishonest.

There's an old Sicilian saying that my mom told me once: Dove mangiate, nunce caca, which means Don't shit where you eat. It was a mistake to get your girlfriend involved in your startup. She was apparently only doing it because it was your thing and she liked you, and that's a bad reason to be invested in a business. If she wants to leave, count your blessings, and buy her out now, preferably before you dump her.

Picture yourself in 5 years. How does he feel about his love life? Where is he in his career? What kind of a person is he, and how does he feel about his past?

Be that guy.

Both your startup and your relationship have a high chance of failure. Better play it safe and concentrate on the French lessons. ;)

On a more serious note, drop the French lessons, and use that time to pay attention to your girlfriend.

However, beware that some relationships are "high-maintenance" in terms of time and attention, not money.

Thanks, that's one of the funniest things I have read on HN in a long time. Learning French for a few hours a week is probably more useful in the long term than spending a few more hours with his girlfriend or startup.

But, looking at just the long term is horrible idea. I think it’s important to also look at how you want to spend the next 6 months rather than just what the long term benefits might be.

In my opinion, you have made the common mistake of overloading yourself. Start claiming back some of your time.

> I have a day job, I also have a halftime startup. I also have french lessons at saturdays.

What's more important to you, speaking French or having a successful, long term relationship with your girlfriend? Answer that question, and you'll know which of the two you should drop.

> In the startup, we have several ambitious projects in execution.

Why? We all have lots of great ideas, but you should focus on a single project/product/idea first. Make it successful, and then you can think about your next step.

> lately she keeps saying about how little time I dedicate to herself

How many hours of your time should you free in order to meet her expectations? (Assuming they are reasonable.)

> should I focus more on my gf and quit my aspirations of becoming "rich" in the near future (with high costs like losing her)

You are not going to become rich by killing yourself with work and excluding the people you love from your life. Quit overworking and start looking for ways to work smarter. You can put 24 hours a day towards a project, but you should draw the line somewhere. Focus on what's essential and gives you the best bang for your buck when it comes to what you'll be able to get done.

Do an assessment of where your time goes, and start cutting stuff out where possible. Allocate the saved time in part to yourself and in part to your girlfriend. It won't be easy, but you need balance or you won't go far. And you won't be happy, trust me.

Okay, you got a tremendous many comments. Some good advice, some bad. Mine might be a bit more unorthodox.

Here's my experience - driven men don't become less driven. You need a woman who is filled with excitement and joy at the thrill of being with a driven man. You'll never have peace with a girl who doesn't like you being too busy, and you'll come to resent her if you give up your goals. Also, this might not be politically correct to say, but I've seen a tremendous many woman get a guy to scale down for her, only to have her interest wane and she leaves. Guys get furious about that later.

For me, the key is having women in my life who understand and appreciate what I do. The best way, I found, is to find a girl who has the kind of father you aspire to be like. I tend to date the daughters of self-made men who were incredibly driven. The daughter of that kind of man has kind of an intuitive understanding of when to tell you to take a break, when to leave you alone, and so on. She also understands what she's getting with you.

Never suppress your dreams and ambitions for a woman - if you do, you'll resent her and that's not a healthy foundation for your relationship. If you're driven, you'll need the kind of woman who thrives with a driven man.

"Your style is...unorthodox."

"But effective."

- Enter the Dragon

I'll add some more politically unorthodox commentary: from what I've seen with family and friends, many women don't know how to be loyal, supportive, and understanding of ambitious men. Hard work and delayed gratification are seen as being self-absorbed, instead of necessary investments for a better future.

Also implicit in your comment, but it should be made explicit: be with someone who has a good relationship with both parents, especially Dad.

I am in the exact same situation man. I am also 25 with a halftime start up and a GF to boot.

I chose both GF and the startup. I just made them equal priorities.

You must ask you self is the startup thing something you would be cool with over love, friendships and anything else?

One of my MAIN goals in life is to start a company and my GF knows this extremely well. I spend more time coding and working on my startup then I spend time with her. You have to let her know that one of your main goals is your start up. And you must be clear about this.

But on the other side, You are 25 years old and so am I. lol. Man how time flies. You have to start thinking what you want in life? Do you want to go through the next 25 years thinking that you missed out on something? I sure don't. I decided to make a commitment. My GF is 'a' top priority in my life and my start up is also 'a' top priority. Both know about each other and its just all about making time for both.

I dedicated at LEAST an hour or so a day to love and talk with my girl. My startup can be stretched to another 6 months if thats what it takes. 6 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but would you rather keep your girl and stretch your startup out another 6 months or lose your girl and finish 6 months early... It doesn't take much to think about this. Thats why I chose both. My startup can be stretched a little bit for the girl I love.

If you have partners, make sure they know that too. My startup and my girl share both rank #1 on my priority list. Just make time for both brother.

Kevin Rose of Digg spent his last $6,000 (which him and his gf were saving to buy a house together) on Digg. A few weeks later his gf broke up with him. A few months later, he was on the cover of business week. I think he is a hero, but for what it's worth, he has been known to say that he will never put business over his personal life again.

"he has been known to say that he will never put business over his personal life again"

Easy to say that now he doesn't need to. I doubt he really believes he made a mistake, and he'd swap all his success with Digg to get his old girl and their $6000 back.

Ask your self: what would you rather have a) a fulfilling relationship and perhaps sexual intimacy or b) the possibility of wealth and riches?

You can't buy a and there is no guarantee of b.

Edit: After thinking about it a little more, the chances are if you are reading this, you are already filthy rich-- meaning you are probably in the top 1%. We often evaluate our "richness" by evaluating our selves with those who have more than us. Stated differently, we evaluate ourselves "up" instead of "down". The reality is that 99% of the rest of the world has less access to opportunity, education, resources, even food.

First, you should be talking to her, not us. You need to come up with an idea of what you are expecting to do with your life first, but if you want a relationship to last, it's going to be all about compromise.

You're trying to decide what's most appropriate for both of you, and what kind of balance you are willing to strike.

Will either of you be happy with you working 60 hours during the week, and trying to make the most of the remaining time with her? Is there a realistic balancing point that should work for both you?

Is it a matter of taking one or two nights a week, scheduling the time with her, and making it top priority no matter what comes up with work? If not, how much time would work? Does it still leave you time to recharge to keep it sustainable?

Most importantly, how does the idea of setting time aside from the start-up to dedicate it to your girl friend sound to you? If you aren't looking forward to it, then you probably already know what you need to know ... you just need to admit it to yourself.

I wish you luck in making the right choices, as you're asking about life changing decisions.

I've been in your shoes. It is difficult.

The problem is that you're making it an either or decision. Good relationships are good, functional partnerships and you should build your relationship as a good functional partnership early on.

What's that mean? It means she ought to be on your team professionally-- it means you ought to be on hers too. The tone of your relationship should be "we're doing this together" whether she's involved in the startup or not.

I'll tell you, after selling my first business and being in business with other partners, I learned more about how to handle a relationship with my now-fiance from that than any self-help book or romantic relationship I've ever been in.

Enroll your girlfriend in partnership-- be as interested in her success as you want to be in hers, and you'll both win. If neither of you can really do that, then move on. But this is absolutely key: establishing the boundaries of teamwork and partnership early on is something most people fail to do which is one reason why most relationships fail.

Hope this helps.

On the edit, you're making it sound like the startup is your project that she is "involved" in. That's not right--either you, her, and cofounder #3 (presumably) all have a startup together, or you have a startup and you tried to rope her into working for you. She probably feels resentful that she can't get you involved in her projects.

Also, it sounds like she's gearing up to leave you anyway, so it's probably too late to ask these questions.

you are making this harder then it is. do you live together? and is this really a conversation about marriage and babies and you just aren't reading between the lines?

#1 follow your dreams. don't compromise that because it compromises yourself and that will never make you happy.

#2 drop the french lessons and take your girlfriend to france instead. plan a vacation with her, it gives you both something to look forward too.

#3 cut back on the day job and focus on the startup. what are you waiting for exactly?

#4 take your GF out on at least one planned date a week. it gives you something both to look forward too and should be fun. Every 10 days or so have a surprise date. you figure it out, cheesy, silly, serious whatever. make sure she is free by suggesting dinner or lunch or whatever and do something unexpected. also, have a backup plan. make sure you turn off your cellphone when you are with her!!!!!

I have a hunch your girlfriend is thinking, "so this is what life with you will be like?" and she doesn't like it. do you?

you're here one time. your not supposed to make a ton of money necessarily. money is a useful tool, not an end in itself. do the startup because you think it's cool and fun and will do some good and maybe make some money. but if you are only doing it for the money you and your relationships are doomed to fail.

I have to wonder how exciting your startup is if you are taking french lessons. I also wonder how interesting your girlfriend is that you would rather take french then have lunch in a bistro and practice your french on her every Saturday.

the real thing i'm trying to tell you here is make an effort at having more fun. with your girlfriend, with your startup.

and if you are not doing the date thing, you will be surprised by how helpful that will be.

I don't know what you should do, and I don't necessarily think there is one right answer for everything in this position. I do know that almost every successful entrepreneurship I've talked to has a story about a failed relationships because of the sacrifices they made for their company. You've gotta weigh the costs for yourself and decide what you want most. This question reminded me of this article by Steve Blank. Hopefully it will help.

http://steveblank.com/2009/06/15/lies-entrepreneurs-tell-the...

"Every man knows that his highest purpose in life cannot be reduced to any particular relationship. If a man prioritizes his relationship over his highest purpose, he weakens himself, disserves the universe, and cheats his woman of an authentic man who can offer her full, undivided presence.

Admit to yourself that if you had to choose one or the other, the perfect intimate relationship or achieving your highest purpose in life, you would choose to succeed at your purpose. Just this self-knowledge often relieves much pressure a man feels to prioritize his relationship when, in fact, it is not his highest priority.

Your mission is your priority. Unless you know your mission and have aligned your life to it, your core will feel empty. Your presence in the world will be weakened, as will your presence with your intimate partner. The next to you notice yourself "giving in" to your woman, postponing your mission and denying your true purpose in order to spend time with her, stop. Tell your woman that you love her, but cannot deny your heart's purpose. Tell her that you will spend 30 minutes (or some specific time) with her in absolute attention and presence, but then you must return to carry on your mission.

Your woman will be more fulfilled with 30 minutes a day of undivided attention and ravishing love than she will with a few hours of your weak and divided presence when your heart really isn't into it. Time you spend with your woman should be time you really want to be with her more than anything else. If you'd rather be doing something else, she'll feel it. Both of you will be dissatisfied." -- David Deida, The way of the superior man

This is the same sort of misguided thinking that led to the broken notion of valuing "quality time" with kids over "quantity". It is wrong for kids and it is wrong for your significant other. Really wrong.

It is also among the most self-indulgent, pseudo-liberating and painfully selfish hogwash I've read in a while. Maybe I just need to get out more. But for me, the sum of my relationships -- with my spouse, kids, partners, friends, parents and family -- is fundamental to who I am.

I am going to change the world with my work. But it will be because of my relationships. Not in spite of them.

Don't forget that there are a few "highest purposes." In no particular order:

    kids
    providing well for your kids
    healthy relationship with your (future?) spouse
    successful startup, etc

Have you discussed with your girlfriend that your startup is not entirely for you?

If you feel like you could live the rest of your life with her, then your startup is very much for her, your children, and your families in the long run.

This isn't meant to answer your question, just to provide more food for thought.

I was in a similar situations sans French lessons. My girlfriend wanted more than I was able to give. Eventually I decided to break things off, since she wasn't happy and we had a different life paths--it seemed the respectful thing to do.

I'll give you some straight forward practical advice about this situation. If you love her--be prepared for one hell of an emotional roller coaster a month or two after the breakup. You'll be able to ignore it for some time and then a whole other range of emotions will hit you. It turns out this is a normal way to process a loss, it's called grieving. http://www.womens-homepage.com/how-to-get-over-break-up-stag...

That said, if she is demanding but not too demanding (you'll know the line) and you think there is a chance for the two of you without the startup--then maybe it's worth trying to make it work with the startup. Any gains made by dumping the girl will quickly be lost to the grieving process. Really though--asking her to put up with you while you're doing the startup is asking a lot. Appreciate what she has put up with so far, let her know you appreciate it, and thank her for being a "partner" in the process.

Good luck.

Not enough information here.

How important is the startup to you? Is it a lifelong dream of yours to have and run your own business doing what you love or is it just a vehicle for you to cash out on your talents at a young age?

How about your relationship? Do you live together? (That can be helpful, but it can also lead to distractions and high levels of non-quality time together.) If not, how often do you see each other? What is your girlfriend's life like? Does she have outside interests and projects, or just a day job and you? How much attention does she need from you? How do the two of you communicate? How difficult would it be for you to get another girlfriend? How much does this one share in your dreams and ambitions for yourself?

I don't expect you to spill your guts on this stuff, but you have to get a lot more personal than this if you want any confident answers. But, it's important to consider these things.

In general terms, though, any life decision that commits you to more than a day job and a little bit of outside activity is something you definitely need to communicate with your partner about, if you value them and the relationship. This includes having children, joining the Navy, taking night classes, or founding a startup.

You should probably be discussing this with your girlfriend, not random hackers. In the meantime, why don't you involve her more in your other stuff? She could come to French classes with you, for a start.

Just saw your edit.

> Her argument was a sort of "given that you aren't going to anywhere with me, I want to quit of the startup"

I have a friend who runs a very successful IT company in Tokyo. When it was first going, his girlfriend came over to his company and helped make it work for less than she was being paid before. A great girl.

A couple years in, they were having a fight outside of the office. They go into the office and he asks her for some documents or some such, and she kind of blows him off. And there's other staff in the office.

He says, "Let's speak outside."

They walk outside, and he says, "If you ever pull this kind of shit and bring our personal life into work again, you're fired on the spot. We can fight after work. Now we're going inside and doing our jobs."

After that - no problems, the company runs like a well-oiled machine, even when they're having personal problems. This is very important - it's dangerous enough to mix work and romance, you need to do everything you can to keep them separated and not have her use work as romantic leverage.

Although I can't necessarily give you advice, I can tell you that I am going through a very similar situation right now - working full time on a start-up and live with my girlfriend. I am also 25. Sometimes, it is real hard balancing a relationship and start-up life but I have been able to do it because, although she technically does not understand what I'm doing, she knows what I'm going through right now and she is willing to make some sacrifices as long as I am. She gives me the time I need and even gives me money when I really need it (I joke around that she is my investor... lol). I have explained to her the start-up culture and she has accepted it and we are doing great now. If anything, I would try to just explain to her that you are accomplishing your goals and dreams and that you would love for her to be a part of your life but sometimes it may be hard. Email me if you want to chat about it - eintnohick@gmail.com

Take couple of days off and take her to Paris. Demonstrate your knowledge of French.... :-)

  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) > P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto startup; }
  else { 
    goto gf; 
  }

The values that you put on the probabilities and the worth of the things are entirely upto you, we are noone to decide that!

  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) > P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto startup; }
  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) < P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto gf; }  
  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) == P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto HN_and_ask_question; }

  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) > P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto startup; }
  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) < P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto gf; }  
  if (P(success of startup) * (worth of startup success to you ) == P(success with gf) * (worth of gf to you)) {
    goto flip_a_coin; }

Well, there's his problem. He's using goto's.

I'm curious as to what you end up choosing. Please let us know.

Off the top of my head, several well known successful startup entrepreneurs ended up having serious relationship once they achieved some considerable level of success or even semi-retired.

On one hand, you can't readily tell with that little data if not having a close girlfriend directly correlates with greater chances, or is there some indirect correlation or none at all.

On the other hand, it seems that once you become somewhat successful, you meet and befriend other successful people on daily basis. And fortunately enough, several interesting women do achieve successes.

Disclaimer: not much of experience on my side.

EDIT: I can't help but wonder whether she reads HN.

You already have all the info and answers you need, you're just looking for support so you don't feel as much responsibility making a decision. You're the one working on the startup and only you know what it means to you. You are the one in your relationship and only you know what that means to you. If you are willing to lose the relationship in order to dedicate more time to the startup, than there's your decision. If you want to keep the relationship, then you need to talk to you girlfriend and figure out exactly what she needs, because that will be necessary in order to make the relationship successful. If you work something out, great. If not, then go with what you know even if it's difficult. We can't tell you what the right answer is, because there is no right answer. There are only answers that you are willing to accept and live with.

Yes, it's a tough decision. I am in the same boat. I just recently (LAST WEEK) moved to a new state in order to be with my girlfriend. I now must work with my startup co-founders remotely and deal with the disadvantages that come with working remotely. But the fact of the matter is, my relationship is important enough to me that I was willing to make certain sacrifices in order to make it successful. But being that I still want the startup to work, I'm also willing to go above and beyond what I was doing before to make up for the long distance disadvantages. It doesn't have to be black or white, relationships are about compromise. As long as you are both open and getting what you want most, then you should be able to work through the other stuff.

And just so you know, a startup isn't necessarily the best way to achieve financial success. They are risky and rarely work out. They take lots of time and often there is little payout until well down the line, if any.

And in a startup, success is not dictated by the number of hours you put in. It's all about efficiency of time and execution. Even someone with the best idea who works ridiculous hours is not guaranteed success if they can't work efficiently and execute effectively. Working on these 2 things could help you with both areas of your life, become successful more quickly and give you more time to hang with your girl. Give those a try.

FYI, it looks like you could use English lessons too...not that you need anymore on your plate :)

The quitting the startup thing might be her last clutch attempt to try and get you to notice what she wants. though it seems you've already identified them and have decided the startup is more important?

Usually I would say stick with the girl. But you know what it might be best to let ambition win. I'm betting you'll be happier.

Dont fear breaking up with her though. My GF moved to Africa for 18 months or more so we ended things on ok terms (I was a bit pissed). But in the end I've been happier now it's all over - were young right? Lots still to happen.

It's not that i disagree that work/life balance isn't a serious issue, and a worthwhile topic of discussion, but why do people keep posting these threads in this sort of manner?

Asking advice of strangers without any suitable knowledge of you or your significant other, or your relationship is not going to result in good advice, if one is genuinely unsure of where life is leading.

In fact, most of the threads started in this manner, contain so little information that one can do little but caricature the participants. If you seriously want relationship advice, there are relationship/marriage councilors, if you think it's worth sorting out.

Advice is also particularly pointless, again lacking any proper context for relating to the situation at hand.

So i'm left wondering why these threads are started. Are these attempts at trolling? Flame bait? Is it an attempt to get something down on paper, to clarify the author's own thoughts on the subject (in which case, why post it to Hacker News)?

================================

As to the respondents, how on earth are you making the judgement that he should or shouldn't leave his girlfriend, given a total lack of knowledge regarding his startup? How can you possibly engage in a responsible cost-benefit analysis (even if it's not really quantifiable anyway), without receiving more than a 215 word description?

Actually, I kind of like these threads. I don't think people are asking for advice to dumbly follow so much as looking to hear about others' similar experiences and/or connect with kindred spirits. I think it's rather fascinating that HN has evolved in this direction (edit: because it's done so entirely spontaneously). Keep in mind, too, that some people are introverts who might feel better able to communicate online, at a safe distance, than they do in person. For them, the alternative might be not communicating at all.

Go with the girl, go with your startup - give up everything else.

I, as well, had extremely long hours working on a startup. But the girlfriend, now my wife, was always there to back me up and lift me back up when I was doubtful of things (and believe me, you will be). Your french lessons won't do shit to bring you up out of the depressive, completely overwhelmed slump a startup will bring you.

Girls and business ideas come and go all the time, but the good ones rarely come at all.

What's the chance this one will be better than the next? (for both)

If she loves you, she should want you to do what makes you happy. Demanding you do things you don't want to, and give up your career, is totally unreasonable.

Relationships only work when both people have a life, and have interests. Otherwise you have two people and nothing to do once the drama dies down.

This could be your last chance to have a good attempt at doing a startup. If you really want to do it, now is the time, before you end up marrying her and having kids. After that it is too late, so decide now if you want to commit more time to her or your startup.

After that it is too late

We've funded people with kids. It's harder, but not impossible.

Get on a polyphasic sleep cycle. Work 16 hours a day and still spend 4 with her. Everyone wins!

Perhaps you should ask what you would want if she were the one with a job, a startup and side activities and you were the one feeling neglected? Things may also be easier for you in the long run if you can honestly figure out what roles each of you has in the relationship. One other thing to consider if you want children is that biologically speaking you're better off starting a family when you're young. Speaking from experience I can say that if you do decide to go that route the demands on both of you will be much greater.

It's never so cut-and-dried as 'her or the startup' or 'being rich or being with her'.

Talk to her, find out what she needs emotionally. Maybe its a couple hours a few times a week. Maybe it's a weekly date-night and one weekend a month.

If you're both reasonable people who want a future together, I suspect the startup and the relationship aren't mutually exclusive.

If they are, I strongly suspect one of you wanted out of the relationship anyway and the startup is just a convenient scapegoat.

Couldn't you solve that with a bit more structure? Like plan some evenings with your gf, or plan a holiday together? Or find a more demanding job for your gf.

There is no "vs". Think '+', it's not easy, but who ever said it would be?

Try to get her involved. Startup is as personal as it gets to life aspirations and she should see it. If not, you might not be for each other. You shouldn't ever make such choices.

btw. I am in absolutely same situation, and I got her involved as much as possible. Don't ever assume she will be as interested in the startup as you are, but give a lot of praise and credit.

I would say french lessons are not important you can spend more time on your start up. I have the same situation as you are right now, I have a startup and a day job but one difference is that I have a awesome girl friend who supports me a lot. She knew that I have spend lot of time in building the product so she doesn't disturb me much. You should convince your girlfriend about your situation.

I have a kid. You can spend time on things outside your startup and focus on work at the same time.

Ditch the day job, not the other parts of life unrelated to work.

That sucks. I have the opposite problem. I'm in a startup and I find myself with too much free time and my girlfriend with too little.

I think it's all about time management. You can find time to spend with your girlfriend if you are more productive with the time you spend doing your startup work. Or perhaps you can work together at Starbucks or something.

Go with the girl, man. I'm surprised most people would even think about this. You'll always have a great idea to work on, but once you get older, it won't be that easy to find a soulmate. I'm getting the feeling this misunderstood entrepreneurship costs more and more for young people. People are always, ALWAYS, more important.

If she's a part of the startup, then you all should spend time together working. If can work together as a couple(especially on a new venture), then you can probably last a lifetime. I'm sure French lessons don't last all day. Spend the evening as a date night. (I am female btw)

Look, startups are death to relationships. Just let it go. Once you have time to have some balence in your life, you can search for a realationship. As it is you'll always be putting her second which is shit for everybody.

Money and success are transient. A companion will always be there for you.

Couple of points in response to this:

1) All things are transient.

2) You are your calendar.

A good relationship requires that you're more committed to the other person than to business.

Only you can decide whether you want to be that committed to this person.

The moment she became part of your business you crossed a line - the relationship / business partner line.

I guess my (married) parents crossed that line when they started running businesses together, but I'd guess that lots of business partnerships cross that line, too. How many husbands and wives run shops or restaurants or other small businesses?

If you work a day job, you're alienated from your labor and under the rule of bosses. That's the situation where you separate your home life and your love life from your work. But don't carry this mentality out of its natural and proper environment into the world of running your own business.

do you see yourself marrying her? if yes, this question might have some merit. If no, enjoy the ride until she leaves you.

personally I side with finishing the startup. If it was a wife, sure might have been a valid question, since her leaving you = you getting screwed financially or having some problems with custody of kids etc.

But a girlfriend? If this one leaves, you'll find someone better. At least this way you won't waste your time with someone who doesn't support your ambitions. There is plenty of fish in the sea, you can always find someone better. Don't let the "she is my soulmate" confuse you. Its just your biology following it's programming in order to have you marry her and pop out some rugrats.

>If no, enjoy the ride until she leaves you.

No. If you are the one who isn't willing to compromise, then you should do the honorable thing and tell her that it isn't working for you. If not, then you are just wasting her time and that is very disrespectful and cowardly.

She clearly wants to make it work since she actually told you what her problem is. If she didn't care, she would have dumped you already.

She clearly wants to make it work since she actually told you what her problem is.

Don't fall into the trap of believing she means what she says. She could mean plenty of other things. For example:

1.) "I want to leave you, but I have no good excuse. Let me find one." Evidence for this: she is less affectionate when you are available.

2.) "I am unsuccessful, and your hard work reminds me of this fact." Evidence: she gets angry at unrelated things when you have work-related success. (This is truly a disaster. If this is the case, get out now.)

In either of these cases, it's best to dump her immediately.

Where I come from, if you treat your girlfriends like disposable items, you're never going to HAVE a wife.

Do you love her. Really think about it. Not in some abstract sense, there is no love formula, that's why school don't offer it as a class. If you love her, you'll know the answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etl9kkIGaHo

there are plenty of fish in the sea

Get a life :)

You can always find another girlfriend. You have only one or two legitimate shots at a successful startup.

What is your evidence of this?

I can tell by the negative points that my clear precise insight was not PC enough. Bottom line, make the money and it becomes extremely easy to get a girlfriend. We nerds become attractive when the accounts balloon. Fact of life. Evidence: Every fellow Stanford grad valley startup nerd. Success = hot devoted girlfriend. Probability of getting girlfriend is positively correlated to startup success.

The sort of person who is attracted to you becasue of money doesn't seem as likely to generate a true and fulfilling relationship.

Most women look for successful men, because it is fundamentally wired in human behavior.

Creating a successful startup makes you more self-confident and it changes you in the way you will be more attractive to women. So, having money is just a side-effect. Having money is good sign you are successful (alpha male).

So it is not true, that with money you are likely to attract bad women. You will simply attract all women.

Knowing dozens of older men and women with families and traditional careers who go through life vaguely dissatisfied with the fact that they didn't follow their ambitions when they had the leisure?

The inverse, however, does little to guarantee happiness.

Here's my data:

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/060629_money_happines...

And

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/...

As well as:

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2004347.htm

Did I mention money?

Two of the studies deal with money.

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