Comment by invalidOrTaken | Hacker News Reader

Comment by invalidOrTaken | Hacker News Reader

I don't know. I just don't know.

I earned a perfect score on the SAT and was voted "Class Genius" in the yearbook, but barely graduated from high school. I was dismissed from university.

I went to work for a machine learning company, where we (self included!) did some really neat stuff, including some heroic pre-sales-meeting coding that saved the day in a minor way. But I was fired six months in for low productivity and low engagement.

Was it brain chemistry? ADD? Millenial entitlement? The Bipolar Lisp personality? Depression? SAD? A once-seen-impossible-to-unsee glimpse of the Gervais Principle? (http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...)

Who knows.

What I do know is that

- a) I may have something, but at least I am lucid. This is an understandable HN comment. I write many of them, and they seem to get ok ratings.

- b) I have spent, and could spend, a lot of time trying to nail down exactly what's up with me. I have very little to show for it.

So I'm trying to just capitalize on the "lucid" part. I'm building stuff. I realize I'm the proverbial crank working alone, but I'm trying very hard to avoid the common pitfalls---setting hard deadlines, getting customer feedback, getting appropriate exercise and social interaction, etc. And it's working. Things are happening. Milestones are being reached.

It's the best I can do.

I have a similar history to yours (except GenX not millenial). I've built a decent career for myself, but have always struggled with SAD and bipolar symptoms. When I feel good I'm sure it's something I can control, but as soon as it sneaks up, my life goes into self-destruction mode. I always feel bad about complaining about the effect this has on my life as my income is typically in the top 10% in the U.S., but still feel most of my potential gets lost in the struggle.

I could have written this comment about myself verbatim. The way I see it, there is so much variation in brains and personalities. You can find in the distribution people who exhibit what look like discipline and constancy. There's also everyone else.

I'm no psychologist, but part of what I'm reading here is guilt and pressure about your 'potential'. Trying to pursue that potential and whatnot will probably only make your problems worse or equal.

It's not a bad thing to aim a bit lower and just find balance in things.

I hear what your saying, and I've done some of that thru the years. But it goes beyond just lowering expectations, I'm already pretty chill about whatever life brings my way. It has more to do with bouts of depression that have regularly slowed and occasionally sidelined my ambitions as well as an additional stressor on family and relationships.

Perhaps you wouldn't be as good without these "downtimes".

I think a lot of the true potential thinking is just misguided.

What I find frustrating is discussing with doctors that not all focusing difficulties are caused by depression. I do experience periods of (unipolar) depression.

One thing that I notice among "smart" people is that its easy to burn-out.

My only real advice is aim to do things that your passionate about. Two examples that come to mind is Elon Musk[1][2], who clearly enjoys building rockets and electric cards, and Mitch Altman[3] who enjoys making cool things. Elon Musk hasn't commented publicly on ADHD specifically. Mitch is well known for his public discussions on depression.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk

[2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/drewhansen/2012/05/24/elon-musk-...

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Altman

> Elon Musk hasn't commented publicly on ADHD specifically.

Is there speculation that he has ADHD?

This is an honest post, thanks for sharing.

I am confused by something though. I have only (to my knowledge) known one person that got a perfect score on the SAT. The reason is that it requires both reasoning as well as 'stamp collecting'--(i.e. book knowledge). If you didn't bother to learn all the obscure vocabulary words used on the SAT that most high schoolers don't know--(extol, capricious, etc.)--then you must've been an exceptional reader. Where did you get this other knowledge? Did you just read a lot?

If you 'barely graduated' high school and got dismissed with university, then you must've simply not done the work. I've known plenty of people that were smart, but lazy.

If you are gifted at a young age, it's easy to get relaxed... become lazy and satsified with the easy victories. The only way you can break this cycle is to endeavor to place a hurdle in front of yourself, one that you can't easily jump.

I also got 1600. I read a lot. In high school (many years ago) I made a game of starting my math homework when the teacher started collecting it, and usually finished in time. I got very used to skimming by. I did graduate from university, but it was by the skin of my teeth. Other than that, OP's experience was very similar to my own. Depression played a huge role in all of this.

(I'm doing fairly well now, but it was a bumpy road.)

Did the same thing with homework in one math class, but my teacher would start at random positions in the classroom...overall, didn't work out to a very high grade for me :)

Is there a name for people who go through this kind of life trajectory? I want to know if there is some kind of consensus on how to snap out of it.

"Underachievers"?

My college GPA ended up at 3.1. During the last two years, I got into a pattern of signing up for a full-time courseload and then completely ignoring (and failing) one of the classes (if this happens to you, I can only advise formally shifting to part-time status). I can provide some observations on particular things that got me through some classes:

One class I failed because I showed up on the first day, determined accurately that the subject material was quite easy, and stopped going for a while. I showed up again in the fourth week of class, and learned that I had already managed a failing grade for myself -- one component of the course grade was a series of four pop quizzes, of which two had already happened, and to pass the course overall it was necessary to pass each component.

Since that class was required for a CS degree, I had to retake it. Having failed it on a technicality pissed me off, so I showed up regularly and was quite vocal in class, and the professor (not the same one) became very familiar with me. When late in the term I finally flaked on a homework assignment, I felt enough of a connection to him that I spoke to him after class, saying I had been a little busier than usual and hadn't done the assignment (I made no offer to get it in late). He whacked me on the arm with the papers he was holding and said "do you need more time? Take another day!", at which point, obviously, I had to complete the assignment. I never missed another one.

So one lesson is: you will do work for a personal connection that your work ethic would not have motivated you to do. Wounded pride helps too.

I had a class in which I was one of four students. No real problems there either; it would have been too embarrassing.

Lesson: close oversight can keep you working.

In one class, I was already established in a flaking pattern when a girl in the class came to me and asked to be my partner (our university encouraged pair programming). From that point on, I had nothing better to do with my time than work on the class assignments. Impressing a professor didn't register with me, but impressing a girl did.

This one is kind of a special case of the first "lesson", so I'll say it helps if the reason you're working is something you find compelling.

This last point is something I have no personal experience with, but I imagine having friends who thought working on something potentially productive was a fun way to spend time would help me a lot. "Hey, let's take a udacity course together!" "Hey, let's learn rails and set up a website!" That kind of thing. Peer group matters too. :/

This tracks pretty much exactly with my college experience, ugh. The worst part was that I always used to think of myself as a very independent person who didn't need anyone else to get things done. When I finally came to realize the important of social motivations, I had to face the fact that I was just in denial for years, making myself miserable for no reason to live up to some ridiculous individualistic ideal.

I've known plenty of genuinely earnest, hard working people who really know how to put the time in. I'd rather work with people who can hit the high notes, as the saying goes.

I also scored 1600 as a senior (during the 2003-04 school year). As an 8th-grader in 1999-2000, I took the SAT and scored "only" 790 verbal, so high school wasn't good for much in the way of verbal points.

I read a lot. That's what it's testing.

I also got a 1600 in SAT Math and Reading. I took a few practice tests, but other than that I didn't specifically prepare for it. I did read books a lot in childhood, but I switched to spending most of my free time on the computer by late middle school and high school. I guess I still did a ton of reading on the computer, though, especially Wikipedia - Wikipedia was just taking off when I was in high school - I think most of my most knowledgeable friends also got their knowledge mostly from Wikipedia.

Part of my score did feel like I got lucky - I usually hit upon one or two words I didn't know in practice tests, but I knew all the words in the one I took officially.

As for your specific examples: "extol the virtues of" is an idiom that comes up a lot on the internet; "capricious" is less common, but I still remember reading it quite a few times.

I envy you for having the feeling that you do the best you can do. I'd like to make it a constant, but I can't. I'm so happy for myself when it happens and strangely, I never care about the result - it's liberating.

> Was it brain chemistry? ADD? Millenial entitlement? The Bipolar Lisp personality? Depression? SAD? A once-seen-impossible-to-unsee glimpse of the Gervais Principle?

Oh please, enough with the drama. I've led the same life. So has everyone else here.

I had the foresight to realize my ailment early on.

I'm lazy and bored easily, which is really the same thing.

> But I was fired six months in for low productivity and low engagement.

So people told you were lazy and rather than accept that at face value, you decided you have some sort of a medical condition?

Look, take my advice. Work for yourself and take on short-term projects. Nothing that lasts more than a month or two. That way, by the time you get bored with it, you're on to something entirely different.

> I realize I'm the proverbial crank working alone, but I'm trying very hard to avoid the common pitfalls---setting hard deadlines, getting customer feedback, getting appropriate exercise and social interaction, etc. And it's working. Things are happening. Milestones are being reached.

Eh? I spoke too soon. Looks like you're already on the right path.

Here's a brilliant idea—help a person by framing their issues as personal and moral failures. That's sure to be a positive catalyst for change.

EDIT: For some reason I can't respond to the comment below.

My point was, it's easy to frame problems with terms like "weak", "irresponsible", and "lazy". It's hard to actually attempt to communicate, identify a problem in a way that you can talk about the same thing, and find a solution.

> Here's a brilliant idea—help a person by framing their issues as personal and moral failures. That's sure to be a positive catalyst for change.

You're being sarcastic, but it actually IS. We live in a culture where everything is a disorder. How convenient, that all of your failures can be blamed on something you don't control.

Here's an idea.

Everything you don't take responsibility for. Everything you don't see as your own failing ... you have no control over and are destined to suffer under its yoke for the rest of your life. And no drug or doctor will fix it for you.

But diseases are something you control. With drugs.

So you could cure schizophrenia without drugs or doctors just by seeing it as you're own failure?

There's a difference between hectoring and constructively engaging in discussion.

But your comments aren't correct. SAD and ADHD are real. Medication can assist people to lead a better life.

... The strong form of that claim consists of the idea that no doctor or drug has ever improved anyone's life with respect to mental disorders. That no-one who's been diagnosed with ADHD, for example, has experienced a higher standard of living from the actions they took around that diagnosis.

I've heard of people, even on here, who claim their lives have been improved after a diagnosis. So you're arguing against quite a heavy prior in that regard.

It also seems that the weaker form of your claim - that you'd mean fix entirely - wouldn't really serve you in the context of the discussion. After all, why would we think that anyone can be made perfect or that it's even rational to invest heavily in doing so rather than taking a shortcut to an acceptable level of functioning?

So, all that in mind. Where's your evidence for your claim that 'Everything you don't take responsibility for. Everything you don't see as your own failing ... you have no control over and are destined to suffer under its yoke for the rest of your life. And no drug or doctor will fix it for you.' ?

This is dangerous.

People with ADHD are at high risk of suicide and depression, precisely because they blame themselves, and think its a moral failure.

This is very relevant:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que...

>If something is a real disease, the patient deserves our sympathy and support; for example, cancer sufferers must universally be described as "brave". If it is not a real disease, people are more likely to get our condemnation; for example Sandy's husband who calls her a "pig" for her inability to control her eating habits. The difference between "shyness" and "social anxiety disorder" is that people with the first get called "weird" and told to man up, and people with the second get special privileges and the sympathy of those around them.

>And if something is a real disease, it is socially acceptable (maybe even mandated) to seek medical treatment for it. If it's not a disease, medical treatment gets derided as a "quick fix" or an "abdication of personal responsibility".

...

>People who make good decisions are intrinsically good people and deserve good treatment; people who make bad decisions are intrinsically bad people and deserve bad treatment. But people who make bad decisions for reasons that are outside of their free will may not be intrinsically bad people, and may therefore be absolved from deserving bad treatment.

>[But] because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop

>if giving condemnation instead of sympathy decreases the incidence of the disease enough to be worth the hurt feelings, condemn; otherwise, sympathize.... Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness.

Sorry for the overly long summary, I didn't want to cut out the important points.

Thanks for this, appreciate the summary. Made me go have a look at the full article.

I really don't have the time or energy to deal with people like you right now, so how about I just link to a comic that expresses the basic gist of it: http://iwastesomuchtime.com/on/?i=84287

What are your credentials? Otherwise, your just a worthless blowhard intent on causing harm.

>Everything you don't take responsibility for. Everything you don't see as your own failing ... you have no control over and are destined to suffer under its yoke for the rest of your life. And no drug or doctor will fix it for you.

It thus follows that the responsible way to bake an apple pie is to take over the universe.

Oh please, stop with the bullshit. Not everyone has the same exact physiology and the same past personal experiences. Both of these will affect how each and everyone us reacts to daily life. Just because you're lazy and bored doesn't mean that he is (or I am or anyone else on this forum is). Or do you assume everyone here wears the same 10.5 shoe size as well?

I want to engage with this comment because it's one commonly encountered with this sort of thing.

>Oh please, enough with the drama. I've led the same life. So has everyone else here.

It is precisely my tiring of drama that's led me to my present attitude. Please note that this was a response to an article someone else posted, not a please-pay-attention-to-me self-post. I never talk about this sort of thing in person. My only purpose in commenting as I did was to provide the perspective of someone who has some contact w/the issues in the article.

>So people told you were lazy and rather than accept that at face value, you decided you have some sort of a medical condition?

Actually it's quite the reverse: people told me I have some sort of medical condition, and I treat myself as though I'm just lazy. It's not necessarily that I disagree with them, but that I think the second is a more cost-effective frame of mind.

>Look, take my advice. Work for yourself and take on short-term projects. Nothing that lasts more than a month or two. That way, by the time you get bored with it, you're on to something entirely different.

Candidly, this strikes me as relatively irresponsible advice, and half-humblebrag. "I just get so bored with normal corporate work, you know? I always need something new." (Subtext: Despite my inability to commit to a position, I am so talented it doesn't matter. Oh, you're not talented enough to make it work like I am, i.e. inferior to me? Sorry brah. Best of luck.)

It's just a hard problem. Those who would judge you as lazy probably can't be communicated with---the answer to that is simply producing. Those who would diagnose you are well-intentioned, but I worry about getting stuck in a victim frame. I don't have time to be a professional victim. I have other things to do.

In saying this, I don't wish to cast aspersions on those taking medication for whatever conditions they may have. I do wish to provide some hope for those who think they may have some sort of condition, but are wary of the stigma associated with acknowleding such.

> Candidly, this strikes me as relatively irresponsible advice, and half-humblebrag. "I just get so bored with normal corporate work, you know? I always need something new."

Wouldn't know, I've never done corporate work. Merely commenting that I myself frequently get tired of doing the same thing after a month or two, to the point where things simply don't get done. Hence the recommendation for short-term projects.

> Those who would judge you as lazy probably can't be communicated with---the answer to that is simply producing.

When you produce, isn't that the cure? Not everyone needs a pat on the back.

> I do wish to provide some hope for those who think they may have some sort of condition, but are wary of the stigma associated with acknowleding such.

As do I. The first step is rejecting this nonsense about "conditions".

What you have or don't have, you don't know and quite frankly, nobody can tell you. It doesn't matter either. You have it and it's not going anywhere.

What you have control over, however, is how you live your life. Far better than medicating yourself to the grave, is to simply mold your life to reflect who you are. A blind man shouldn't live next to a cliff.

> What you have or don't have, you don't know and quite frankly, nobody can tell you. It doesn't matter either. You have it and it's not going anywhere.

How to take control and improve the life you live is the point of all of this. Identifying what you have is the difference between finding a solution by random chance and a focused search of known successful strategies. Once you know you have a bacterial infection, you have a smaller pool of known strategies to deal with your problems and improve your life.

If you found a solution, at random, to your own problems, like switching projects before your lack of interest hurts you, then you had good luck. You cannot generalize luck.

Your comments reek of ignorance and stupidity. Your comment and attitude are harmful, and in no way helpful. Practically every sentence is either just outright wrong, or worse, so completely wrong that anyone taking it to have any merit will be harmed by believing it.

It's a false dichotomy to assume you must either a) reject conditions or b) be medicated. This is especially true considering that at least one of the "conditions" mentioned by invalidOrTaken was a social conditions (e.g. millennial entitlement), rather than medical -- widely accepted as such or not.

Suppose some condition that one may have is a real phenomenon and not just sensationalism, then knowing one has the condition allows him or her to better understand what leads to poor performance; you might need short projects because you lose interest, but someone else's performance might be more dependent on the management style of the company due to a symptomatic loss of focus instead.

wow that gervais principle was a good read!

you could previously have just been immature. Now you are doing the self-discovery and learning about yourself properly, and seeing the benefits of knowing your own limitations and strengths. Being a class genius at high school makes you think everything will be easy, when infact it's not. Now you know its not easy (left uni), so you now put in the hours. Good luck on your path to success, you still have the smart brain so it will find its role eventually.

I can strongly identify with your story. However, I have been able to "cure" my ADHD, please read my comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6908027 and let me know what you think.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com