Comment by monsterix | Hacker News Reader

Comment by monsterix | Hacker News Reader

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> vastu shastra, which is astrological woo.

I'd give you that in its current marketed form it is astrological bullshit, but originally Vastu Shastra was a formal form of science [1] grounded on engineering principles and urban design. All persevering to obtain a 'calm' for the dweller.

One can still infer from the high precision N-S-E-W positioning of fairly huge ancient Hindu temples, historical remains of homes and dwellings, monasteries and other artefacts. Even the 1000+ step staircases in some of the forts and fortresses [2][3], transoceanic bridges [4] suggest the quality of math that was in play.

The choice and placement of stone, wood and metal w.r.t Sun, tropical climate and other ergonomic needs is simply mind blowing. Math has to be at the root of it.

Obviously not many records exist to substantiate the level of skill and academia prevalent at the time. I wish someone undertook a journey to research and substantiate just about "everything" that we have from Egypt to Indonesia (Hindu kingdoms spanned that far, yes!). At the risk of being shooed away by existing pride.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vastu_shastra

Even the wikipedia here, for example, says ... "while Vastu had long been essentially restricted to temple architecture..." which is completely wrong, and they defeat it in the third paragraph where they define "the Sanskrit word vastu means a dwelling or house with a corresponding plot of land" which is what Vaastu Shastra was all about, not temples alone.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChandBaori.jpg

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chand_Baori

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%27s_Bridge

>from Egypt to Indonesia (Hindu kingdoms spanned that far, yes!).

wait, what?? Clear to elaborate? I know alexander had a huge kingdom, i know gnehis khan conquered a very very large area of land. I know muslims had an ENORMOUS empire but this looks like news to me. So clear to elaborate? Specifics?

Depends on how do you define a Hindu kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hindu_distribution.png

I'd define it as places RULED by Hindus (preferably a single central monarch)

I have never heard of ancient Indian kingdoms going beyond present day afganistan[1]. This falls quite a bit short of Egypt. On the eastern side though, Indonesia seems to have had Hindu kings[2]. I do recollect reading somewhere that at some point of time Indonesia was controlled from Kalinga but can't seem to find a reference any more. I don't think that the whole area from Afganistan till Indonesia was ever under a single king at any point of time. But I am not much of a historian so wouldn't really bet on any of this stuff.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indonesia

I suppose hinduism could spread that far. I mean consider this, Buddhism actually originates from India. Buddha was a Hindu Prince! And yet its all over the far east (and ironically not much in India). So i suppose Hinduism could spread that far too. (Well Islam and Christianity sure spread a lot!)

Btw, I think you are right about the whole area not being in Hindu control at one point in time. The largest Indian kngdom i remember was of Ashoka, and even that din't completely cover all of modern day India+Pakistan (he gave up war right before conquering the south-most tip because he converted to Budhism).

I think Muslims actually ruled all of the south-asian subcontinent at one time. The Mughals

No they didnt. The were not able to cover Tamil Nadu, Kerala and the southern parts of Andhra Pradesh.

On the western edge, I found some context about various books and papers linking up Hindu migrations into the Horn of Africa, particularly Egypt. Most of what I read about this was offline, so unable to provide additional dope in here.

Here is a write up listing some studies and names of books to consider:

http://amlanroychowdhury.webs.com/antiquityofegypt.htm

For far eastern links, read about inter-marriages and relationships for a period of over two millennium between Ayodhya(India) and Seoul (South Korea) [1]. A search on the Kim clan and Princess Heo Hwang-ok and the spread of Buddhist/Hindu culture right up to Japanese coastline can be inferred.

This is kind of the spread of Hinduism in South East Asia [2] before convertists of other religions (like Muslims or Christianity) emanated.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Southeast_Asia

the biggest hindu temple(actually the largest religious monument in the world) is well outside India in Cambodia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat Also try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Indonesia

Indian rulers did not have much intentions of ruling outside India but in the ancient world presence of Hinduism had spread to Egypt to Indonesia and even China,Japan. Even though it was not that much successful as Buddhism or Jainism.

Wait, yes. Dude, Alexander and Genghis Khan are like they happened only yesterday. Hindusim is much older than all of that, and I don't mean only in terms of religion. The culture itself is very old, so to speak.

God this is going to be a long comment.

I don't know how immersed you are w.r.t Hinduism, which gave birth to, no rather off-shooted other religions like Buddhism & Jainism. Here I can only give a very top-level view to help you make an entry:

There are two epics of the Hindus: The Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Read both, they're brilliant classics. These two epics are stories about rise and fall of political power, affairs, conceit and ensuing wars between leaders of different Hindu kingdoms. Let's say kingdoms of an aggregate land mass we now call India, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan that stretches up to far, far east to places like Cambodia.

I could not confirm how far in the west did Hinduism spread out but will do so given that I am excited about it now.

Both epics are mythology by today's standards, but the stories in each are what Hindus vehemently believe as true. All (not most) of warring cities in both these epics exist inside and outside of India (or sunk under the ocean [1]) even today. I mean literally.

On axis of time, both these two epics are separated from each other by two 'Yugas' [2]. We are living in the Kaliyug where kali == machines and yug == time-frame. Yugas are of varying length, first being Satayug about 1,728,000 million years. Man exists during this period as life forms from scratch in this universe. Alexander was like a fucking second ago when you're talking ages of this length.

I suggest start with Yugas and you'll start seeing math, numbers, conclusions, geometric progressions and astronomy right in there. No need to accept anything is true or false, w.r.t written and confirmed history. But you'll love visiting places, and connecting it with the historical texts.

It goes up the Bohr's model of atom (Paramaṇu), the theory of what nucleus and subatomic particles were about (hell yes!), the nuclear bomb (Brahma Asthra) and how these were used in warfare, negotiation and peace keeping. Several other concepts of what seems similar to magic of quantum physics, treatment of time-space curvature, extraterrestrial life, theory of relativity and additional dimensions of gravitational physics (though refuted by modern practitioners of course) all exist in discussions. May or may not be correct, but the level of thought can be appreciated.

Astronomy, for example, scales to the level of predicting solar cycles, cycles of universe (311.04 trillion years?[3]), variable length of life of man/species, sub-sub-events like the ice age, age of the machines, age of only truth which you will find pretty fascinating to read, if not believable.

Let me just throw in the starting point [2]:

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrics_of_time_in_Hinduism

>The culture itself is very old, so to speak.

A humble evidence based look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Indian_s...

No known evidence shows anything meaningful in the civilization department happened before 4000BC.

Well, no. The evidence you present is of civilizations that disappeared or were destroyed and were excavated later on. These do not tie to the age of Hinduism or the age of the culture, but only represent a few dots on its timeline.

Ayodhya, for example, the city of Ram exists even today [1]. You're an Indian, you'd know it of course. The modern version of this city is considered more than 9000 years old, that's roughly about 7000 BC on wards. Buy a plot of land in Ayodhya, start digging and you'll hit structures and temple tops of another buried city underneath as you go deeper.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya

This cave for example Bhimbetka [2], is between 50,000-200,000 years old. It is mentioned in epic Ramayana which has yet to be dated. Bhimbetka is declared a world heritage site, and gives a proof of homo erectus with skills in the Deccan area that early in time.

Some crazy estimates suggest approximately 100,000 to 900,000 years ago for Ramayana, but then it is a crazy estimate [3] indeed. There are pearls of available proof, mythology and craziness all over the place. Someone needs to connect them together so that we might get a better picture of it. Obviously I don't wish to over state the age of Hinduism, but it is mystic by virtue of its age for sure. It makes me lose my calm, ironically.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters

[3] http://www.rense.com/general30/nasa.htm

>Math has to be at the root of it.

Numerology is just as likely of a root.

All right, scepticism taken. Look at these images:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qzhiolzuxsw/UK0HEPH7x4I/AAAAAAAAH8...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a7UIHnAfmH0/UK0Ga-RmigI/AAAAAAAAH5...

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/chand-baori.html

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/chand-baori.html

This is just an example. What do you think has higher probability of being used to build this?

1. Math and calculations or 2. Numerology?

Numerology doesn't exclude calculations.

"Root" makes it sound like the purpose of building the very nice step well is to prove a mathemathical point. I'd venture to say its primary purpose had something to do with water.

Patterns and repetition is what I see beyond that, which are fairly prevalent in art and architecture exactly because you can get to them by simple experimentation.

> I'd venture to say its primary purpose had something to do with water.

Got it. I volunteer to move out of this discussion because you could have as well said that primary purpose of stairs had something to do with going up or down?

Most architecture around the world from Eiffel tower to Pyramids to Angkorvat has something to do with proving a point. Usually the point is that 'we have achieved this engineering marvel, we have the capability to build this'.

By your logic people possibly got to Eiffel tower or Golden gate by simple pattern and repetition, even experimentation, devoid of any math. That's just plain stupid.

That's really not the conclusion you should be getting if you apply (my?) logic.

Of course math is involved. But those things were not built for the sake of math, their "roots" are in their respective functions (building something impressive, something religious, or crossing a bay).

Edit: I just checked your [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%27s_Bridge reference. You seem to be saying that this geological formation ("transoceanic bridge") is about mathematics too, implying it's man-made. If that's the case, we're playing by different rules of what "logic" means, and our discussion is completely pointless, no offense intended.

a society where math is common might build such structures without thinking too much about math. like the bridges or dams we build today.

No offense taken.

Yes, there isn't a proof that the bridge in question is man-made. I deliberately put it up there. GSI claims it 'may be man-made' but it stops at that. Here is something you might want to look at: Search about 'floating rocks of India' (Pumice rocks) that have specific gravity lower than sea water.

Once you dig deep into some of it, read through Ramayana and also dive into history of Sri Lanka, I am sure you'll find something really interesting. That's why in the parent comment I wished someone undertook the journey to capture and record "everything" that needs to be explored of history over there.

Just found out that the Dark Knight (Batman) was shot at Chand Baori (http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/chand-baori.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chand_Baori

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