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Comment by coldcode | Hacker News Reader

What a depressing article(s). Our reality is only going to get worse since there is little we can (or have the will to) do. At least in the Ukraine people are really contemplating change. Here we watch our football and our shows and fawn over celebrities and nothing changes.

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Every time you say people are just fawning over celebrities you contribute to the problem by helping develop widespread facile cynicism. Say something new.

Was OWS not your style? Do you think anti-capitalist critics that use technology are hypocrites? Are you waiting for someone to craft the perfect movement before you jump in? If any of these or those in their vein apply, it's time to change your MO, your way of looking at the problem.

The is no "the" in Ukraine. And there is no point in comparing Ukraine to the US. If you think that people in Ukraine are contemplating change you have to read up more on it. Or maybe visit the country sometimes to see for yourself how wrong you are.

I have been to the Ukraine over a dozen times. Ukraine is doing more than just contemplating change. Everyone there is demanding change and is unhappy with all elected politicians no matter what party they are from.

The main problem is that Ukraine is not sure what kind of change it wants. And it doesn't understand the steps to take to get change. And too many Ukrainians want a magical solution that will sweep the problems away.

Point 1 - Signing that Euro agreement will not change anything. It only puts Ukraine on a path to make thousands of changes in their laws and their society that may or may not hurt the people. Then, after 10 or 15 years of this, they might be allowed to join the EU. Ask Turkey about how long you need to wait. And after joining the EU, Ukraine would be a substandard partner, for instance there would be visa restrictions for years to come that would prevent many Ukrainians from working in the EU. Quotas in fact.

Point 2 - Ukraine is already in an informal union with Russia. Given that Ukraine's largest trading partner is Russia and that Russia's largest trading partner is Ukraine, they can't help but be in a union. If Ukraine would only sign an agreement as a CIS member and formalize this relationship, the people of Ukraine would gain immediate benefits. For instance there would be a legal way for Ukrainians to go work in Russia, and since they are already fluent in Russian, they could get reasonable jobs and not dishwashing or hotel cleaning jobs like they get in the EU.

So what would be best for Ukraine?

Also, consider this. Russians are GREAT chess players. What if Russia is orchestrating this because it knows that if Ukraine joins the EU, then it will weaken the EU and open the door for Russia to also join, and then to dominate?

There is no "the" in "Ukraine".

There isn't any reason preventing ("the") Ukraine as a E.U. member to have good relations with Russia.

Yeah, but in Ukraine, they're digging themselves out of a much deeper hole. If they manage to get accepted in the EU, a lot of them would emigrate west. USA citizens don't have that option. There isn't a "west" for someone from the USA to emigrate to. USA is the west.

You shouldn't compare your corruption with Ukraine's or other Soviet Bloc countries'. Those people have a place to run to, as hard as getting there is. You have nowhere to run.

There's plenty of Western countries that are less screwed up than the US.

For example? What's involved for a citizen of the United States who would like to settle in one of those countries permanently?

I know plenty of US citizens that have emigrated to Canada, via school or work related methods. It's not particularly hard, it just takes time for the paperwork to clear.

Get a job, get a green card, wait five years, get your citizenship.

That first step is a challenge but if you're the type who reads Hacker News you're better off than most. My green card application for Ireland was approved yesterday. (Yes yes Ireland has numerous flaws - I still vastly prefer life here).

Or this if you can work for yourself. The requirements are pretty easy to satisfy.

http://www.pond-crosser.com/northern-europe/netherlands/dutc...

HUGE DISCLAIMER

Pond-crosser is a site I recently started. Even so I can't imagine it being more applicable.

How about Germany. I'm in Berlin, although I even thought about moving to USA in the past (I also had a few decent job offers in Vally). As a side note: I'm not German.

USA looks increasingly like a place that must exist and I'll need to visit from time to time, but I'd prefer for all the conferences and everything else to be somewhere else if possible...

Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands.

Hell, even Switzerland.

They do not want immigrants, they have problems enough with the ones they got recently

My bet is they'll take educated American immigrants happily.

Then you don't know the Swiss.

True, I was mostly guessing. I am surprised to hear this.

That's not the case in my experience. Anecdotal, but I worked at a company where the brunt of the downturn layoffs fell disproportionately on people who needed work Visas, which have become much more difficult to justify in the current climate. AFAIK nothing's changed in that respect.

Google "Dutch American Friendship Treaty" If Netherlands interests you.

That Auburn game was really something though!

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